Perkins prima. (Montego/rover engine. )

[Danzy]

I have the Perkins Prima engine on my NB. The water pump seems to have failed and sourcing a new part seems difficult. 

I was going through the process of just getting it removed and sent off to have (I presume) new bearings fitted. 

My usual maintenance guy didn't want to touch it as he said its all linked to the timing belt . He did ring a friend whom also said they are a bitch to repair. 

Because while repairing the pump I may as well change the T belt at the same time. 

It's becoming more challenging from what I thought would be an easy swap over 😬. 

Anyway I'd be grateful if any advice or even someone known who'd be willing to tackle such a challenge. 

My bulkhead does have a 2 foot square cut out so the front of the engine is accessible. 

Thank You for reading. 

 

[Kingdom Isambard Brunel]

I think the pump runs off the alternator belt, not the timing chain.   if so its a simple job but involves removing the cover.  But then I could be wrong.

 

See here    https://www.perkins.com/en_GB/aftermarket/operation-maintenance-manuals.html

Edited April 12 by Kingdom Isambard Brunel
Additional link.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Kingdom Isambard Brunel said:

I think the pump runs off the alternator belt, not the timing chain.   if so its a simple job but involves removing the cover.  But then I could be wrong.

 

See here    https://www.perkins.com/en_GB/aftermarket/operation-maintenance-manuals.html

 

That was my conclusion when looking online, but never having worked on one, I can't be sure. I did note that the OP's photo did not seem to accord with some Prima online images of the front of the engine. It certainly looked belt driven and the timing belt seemed to pass well away from it on all sides.

[Kingdom Isambard Brunel]

The belt shown is just a notched V belt, not a timing belt. Clearly looks to be around crank, alternator and water pump pulleys.

[MtB]

5 hours ago, Danzy said:

My usual maintenance guy didn't want to touch it as he said its all linked to the timing belt .

 

That seems rather unlikely given your photo. Has he seen your photo? 

[Danzy]

He actually came down to look. More of a welder than mechanic but he is quite handy. 

Also it was a Friday late afternoon. 😁

Do you think it is not linked to the timing belt then because I do have the Haynes engine book. It does mention about paying attention to the timing marks. 

[Tony Brooks]

26 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

That seems rather unlikely given your photo. Has he seen your photo? 

 

I think he has little idea layout wise, but could see from the cover that it has a timing belt and assumed that, like lots of cars, the pump is timing belt driven. If that was the case, then why the blazes does it have a V belt on it.

 

I could see nothing difficult about changing the timing belt from the online images as long as the mechanic is experienced and competent. from what the OP says, I think this has been a lucky escape, but I can't recommend someone who can do it properly.

 

 

 

 

[Danzy]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That was my conclusion when looking online, but never having worked on one, I can't be sure. I did note that the OP's photo did not seem to accord with some Prima online images of the front of the engine. It certainly looked belt driven and the timing belt seemed to pass well away from it on all sides.

That Perkins website could be 

[magnetman]

I think the top pulley is an idler. 

 

 

This is what someone on a ybw thread said about it and it seems accurate:

 

"The pump is not in a very awkward position. Locking the engine up with timing pins takes about 10 mins. Taking the timing belt off another couple of minutes and thenthe pump is staring you in the face. A couple of hoses off and some bolts around the flange of the pump and its off. Half an hour tops. Then clean the face of the block up, there are no gaskets, and fit the new one. A job that should take about an hour and a half. I would be interested to see how much they charged you to do it."

[Danzy]

Ok thank you for your input. I did find the Perkins parts book for my engine. And I thought I sent in pics to canal world but nothing has appeared.

I suppose if you have no idea what timing pins are and where they go it sounds a bit daunting considering the catastrophic outcome if you FIU 😂. 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Danzy said:

FIU

 

Being a division of the UK's National Crime Agency I'm not sure that the Financial Intelligence Unit would have much interest in your water pump timing pins !

 

Maybe we move in different circles ?

[MtB]

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

"The pump is not in a very awkward position. Locking the engine up with timing pins takes about 10 mins. Taking the timing belt off another couple of minutes and thenthe pump is staring you in the face.

 

It does seem to me that this person is using the term "timing belt" to refer to the notched vee belt. 

 

From the photo we have, taking the actual timing belt off (if it is a belt at all, which I doubt) would involve removing the crankshaft pully too, then the timing belt chest/cover. All of which will take a good deal longer than the "couple of minutes" they mention. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe we move in different circles ?

 

Total shot in the dark, but I think that TLA probably stands for "Fudge it up" 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

Total shot in the dark, but I think that TLA probably stands for "Fudge it up" 

 

 

I like Fudge!

 

Yes I suppose that is one possibility but fudge is a bit soft and may allow things to move about - however, maybe more likely than him using his boat to launder money.

[bizzard]

I reckon it has a timing belt. The top half of the timing belt case comes off as is usual on timing belt engines. You can see the divide line between the upper and lower parts of the casing as a diagonal line from lower right to upper left.  The pump would be bolted to the block inside the timing belts circuit and driven by the outer notched V belt

Edited April 13 by bizzard

[Danzy]

Correct with the FIU. 😁. Someone did mention to me, that the bearings in these w pumps are different depending on the engine size, fuel, whether it's turbo or not. Omg I'm just concerned about getting the thing off without that thrown in.  This pic is out of stock obviously 😬

[Bod]

9 minutes ago, Danzy said:

Correct with the FIU. 😁. Someone did mention to me, that the bearings in these w pumps are different depending on the engine size, fuel, whether it's turbo or not. Omg I'm just concerned about getting the thing off without that thrown in.  This pic is out of stock obviously 😬

It is clear from the above post that the belt in your photo is the water pump drive belt (fan belt in old terms)

This will have to be removed, along with the cam Timing belt, under the yellow cover. 
To prevent major engine damage,

”Timing pins” have to be placed in the engine to prevent any and all movement in the cam shaft and crankshaft before the timing belt is touched. 
A simple service job, if you have the tools and knowledge!

If I recall correctly, it’s the screws that hold the water pump in place can be”difficult!!” to remove. 

As a matter of course, replace the timing belt, it has a limited service life, failure of the belt will destroy the engine. 
 

Bod

[Tony Brooks]

55 minutes ago, Danzy said:

I suppose if you have no idea what timing pins are and where they go it sounds a bit daunting considering the catastrophic outcome if you FIU

 

Timing pins are just what they sound like. Pins that you push through the cam BELT sprockets when the engine is in a given position to prevent any part from rotating unintentionally. They are used to prevent you FIU, although here are other methods of varying degrees of bodge. In any case, once the belt is on you should rotate the engine BY HAND two complete turns, and if you have FIU, the engine will just refuse to turn as a piston contacts a valve, so you start again. However, if you have never changed a timing belt before it is probably best to get someone in and watch them, but who is the question.

 

You may be able to make timing pins from suitable bolts, but that depends upon the engine.

[MtB]

34 minutes ago, bizzard said:

I reckon it has a timing belt. The top half of the timing belt case comes off as is usual on timing belt engines. You can see the divide line between the upper and lower parts of the casing as a diagonal line from lower right to upper left.  The pump would be bolted to the block inside the timing belts circuit and driven by the outer notched V belt

 

I noticed that but decided getting the belt off was still impossible without removing the crank pulley and whole front of the chest, so was probably a chain drive. Wrong though.

 

So how does one get the timing belt off to change it?!! 

 

Apols for dragging this off topic....

 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

54 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

It does seem to me that this person is using the term "timing belt" to refer to the notched vee belt. 

 

From the photo we have, taking the actual timing belt off (if it is a belt at all, which I doubt) would involve removing the crankshaft pully too, then the timing belt chest/cover. All of which will take a good deal longer than the "couple of minutes" they mention. 

 

There is an idler on the timing belt for removal. 

As has now been pointed out the water pump is driven by the vee belt but in order to remove the pump body the timing belt must come off. Not because it is running the pump but because the way the unit is packaged means the timing belt is in the way. 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

So how does one get the timing belt off to change it?!! 

 

Apols for dragging this off topic....

 

I think, from images I have seen, by taking the water pump and crankshaft pulley off and then moving the bottom timing cover forward.

 

Just now, magnetman said:

There is an idler on the timing belt for removal. 

As has now been pointed out the water pump is driven by the vee belt but in order to remove the pump body the timing belt must come off. Not because it is running the pump but because the way the unit is packaged means the timing belt is in the way. 

 

And, again from images, I have a feeling the timing belt tensioner (idler) is mounted on the water pump, not the engine front plate/block, so it would be a belt off job.

[magnetman]

I don't know but could one just take the pulley wheel off alone rather than the whole assembly? Is it spring loaded tensioner or just an idler in a fixed position. 

 

 

[bizzard]

Another way to ensure the timing belt is replaced correctly without timing pins is to before it's removal Jamb the camshft belt wheel by banging a wooden wedge behind it firmly to stop it moving then paint marks across both camshaft wheel tooth and belt valley between teeth, same with lower crankshaft toothed belt drive wheel. Once the belt is off these paint marks can be transfered to a new belt if needed. These paint marks and transfer paint marks from old to new belts need doing very accurately. If the crankshaft or camshaft moves, all the paint marks will all align up and be corrected. I often did this on many different engines when no timing pins were handy. to be safe.  Afterwards always turn engine over by hand before starting it up, to be sure as valves and pistons on diesel engines only just miss each other when running, ONE tooth out and they could collide, TWO teeth out and they almost certainly will.

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, bizzard said:

ONE tooth out and they could collide, TWO teeth out and they almost certainly will

 

And even if they don't collide the engine will, I'd imagine, run like an utter dog. 

 

 

If it runs at all. 

 

 

[Danzy]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Timing pins are just what they sound like. Pins that you push through the cam BELT sprockets when the engine is in a given position to prevent any part from rotating unintentionally. They are used to prevent you FIU, although here are other methods of varying degrees of bodge. In any case, once the belt is on you should rotate the engine BY HAND two complete turns, and if you have FIU, the engine will just refuse to turn as a piston contacts a valve, so you start again. However, if you have never changed a timing belt before it is probably best to get someone in and watch them, but who is the question.

 

You may be able to make timing pins from suitable bolts, but that depends upon the engine.

Thank you. Because reading the Haynes book it makes it sound so matter of fact and simple. I already sheared a bolt on the thermostat housing block a few months ago. Managed to drill it out and sourced a bolt which thankfully just got away with. 

 

35 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Another way to ensure the timing belt is replaced correctly without timing pins is to before it's removal Jamb the camshft belt wheel by banging a wooden wedge behind it firmly to stop it moving then paint marks across both camshaft wheel tooth and belt valley between teeth, same with lower crankshaft toothed belt drive wheel. Once the belt is off these paint marks can be transfered to a new belt if needed. These paint marks and transfer paint marks from old to new belts need doing very accurately. If the crankshaft or camshaft moves, all the paint marks will all align up and be corrected. I often did this on many different engines when no timing pins were handy. to be safe.  Afterwards always turn engine over by hand before starting it up, to be sure as valves and pistons on diesel engines only just miss each other when running, ONE tooth out and they could collide, TWO teeth out and they almost certainly will.

Omg great advice. 

25 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

And even if they don't collide the engine will, I'd imagine, run like an utter dog. 

 

 

If it runs at all. 

 

 

👍

[Kingdom Isambard Brunel]

This is another Perkins engine where a water leak from the internally mounted pump wrecks the engine as the antifreeze and water get into the oil. I remember a tractor engine where this happened and it had to have a total rebuild.

Its a crazy way of constructing an engine in my view.

I could see that the V belt ran the pump but to get at it means removing all the front cover.