Travel Power

[Phil E.]

I’ve been reading a lot on here about the Travel Power.   I can’t figure out on my installation whether I am running enough revs for it to be providing power.  Should I expect to see a control panel, switches or lights for it as I can’t find anything?   It’s wired into a three way manual switch (shore power fore, shore power aft, Travel Power), then to a Mastervolt Galvanic Isolator, then to a Mastervolt Combi Inverter/charger.  I also have a Mastervolt Easyview 5 control panel but can’t easily figure out what it’s telling me.  Any help appreciated!

[nicknorman]

Later Travelpowers can have a remote panel with a couple of push buttons and an lcd display. But I think they all have LEDs on the box which tell you if the engine rpm is higher than necessary, or too low, for the present load. With a light load there should be ac power present even at idle. But of course there is a rather not-obvious rocker switch on the box which needs to be turned on!

[Phil E.]

5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Later Travelpowers can have a remote panel with a couple of push buttons and an lcd display. But I think they all have LEDs on the box which tell you if the engine rpm is higher than necessary, or too low, for the present load. With a light load there should be ac power present even at idle. But of course there is a rather not-obvious rocker switch on the box which needs to be turned on!

So, it may or may not have external controls/indicators?  I’ve craned my neck but where the unit is installed, under the floor in a trad Hudson engine room, I can see no lights or controls!  It’s running off a JD3 which doesn’t rev very fast when cruising so am wondering if it’s only useful when moored up… and I’m not keen of running the engine moored up with little load.

[Tonka]

Just now, Phlea said:

So, it may or may not have external controls/indicators?  I’ve craned my neck but where the unit is installed, under the floor in a trad Hudson engine room, I can see no lights or controls!  It’s running off a JD3 which doesn’t rev very fast when cruising so am wondering if it’s only useful when moored up… and I’m not keen of running the engine moored up with little load.

@dmr has one on his JD3

 

11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Later Travelpowers can have a remote panel with a couple of push buttons and an lcd display. But I think they all have LEDs on the box which tell you if the engine rpm is higher than necessary, or too low, for the present load. With a light load there should be ac power present even at idle. But of course there is a rather not-obvious rocker switch on the box which needs to be turned on!

I think the panel Nick is talking about is a very old pseudo travel power sold by Markon and where on the BD3's. You had to run the engine at a fixed speed of 800 RPM which is why you had a Too fast light, too slow light or generate light. Cant think why the travel power designed to operate at any speed would need those lights

[dmr]

Ours is quite an old installation but the JD3 has a big pulley, about 12 inch dameter, on the front of the engine (fitted by a taper lock onto a stub shaft bolted to the front pulley). This gives a decent alternator speed and some power at tickover, though not enough to drive the washing machine.

 

The electronics box needs dry conditions and ventilation , and not too much dust, so not sure if under the floor is the best place for it.

There are several TP versions, older ones have a big black box, more recent ones have a slightly smaller silver box.

 

Our black box has no switches or lamps on the box but itself has a remote rocker switch with built in red and green LEDS to indicate if there are enough revs to meet the power demand. If revs are too low it still works but the output voltage drops off.

 

Is yours a  box black or silver and can you see a model number?.

Note that the air intake for cooling does need cleaning from time to time.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

I think the panel Nick is talking about is a very old pseudo travel power sold by Markon and where on the BD3's. You had to run the engine at a fixed speed of 800 RPM which is why you had a Too fast light, too slow light or generate light. Cant think why the travel power designed to operate at any speed would need those lights

No our one is 2011 vintage. Dometic Silver box. It can run stand alone with the LEDs to advise about rpm, or with the remote panel. It can produce about 2kw at tickover but not without a lot of stress on the belt.

1 hour ago, Phlea said:

I’ve been reading a lot on here about the Travel Power.   I can’t figure out on my installation whether I am running enough revs for it to be providing power.  Should I expect to see a control panel, switches or lights for it as I can’t find anything?   It’s wired into a three way manual switch (shore power fore, shore power aft, Travel Power), then to a Mastervolt Galvanic Isolator, then to a Mastervolt Combi Inverter/charger.  I also have a Mastervolt Easyview 5 control panel but can’t easily figure out what it’s telling me.  Any help appreciated!

Just to add, with the engine running, travelpower selected, you should see the LEDs on the Mastervolt Combi change to show ac present light on, inverter light off and charger light on.

 

Your boat was built in 2005 so others might have a better idea of which Travelpower Steve would have fitted. But at a guess I’d say silver box, like ours. The LEDs and rocker switch are well disguised, I’d suggest having a closer look. But surely if the box is hidden away, there’d be a remote panel? Our one looks like this

 

Edited March 10 by nicknorman

[Phil E.]

Yes mine’s a silver box and I’ve searched high and low but can’t see a panel like yours, or indeed unlike yours!

That’s useful info about the lights on the combi thanks- although that’s under the floor too so I’ll need to lift the panel to look each time.  Unless I can get my head around the mastervolt control panel- I shall read the manual again and see if it makes sense this time. 

 

Reading the manual for the Combi this evening it seems very clever and will automatically combine power from the inverter with the travel power input to make up the numbers if needed.  
 

Perhaps I should just have more faith that it all works as it should though (which it seems to do), but I do like to know how things work in case they stop working and also for curiosity.

 

Another thing I want to work out is whether I can have my third, currently unconnected alternator put into my system so that I’m not purely relying on the Travel P to charge my domestics when out and about- I like redundancy.  The Combi doesn’t seem to have a 12v input (apart from solar) and I wonder whether a second battery charger is possible/desirable. 

 

Interesting stuff this! 
 

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, Phlea said:

 

Reading the manual for the Combi this evening it seems very clever and will automatically combine power from the inverter with the travel power input to make up the numbers if needed.  
 

Yes it can, however there is an internal dip switch to enable that function. It is off by default and Steve didn’t change that setting when he installed it. It’s something I enabled after we got the boat.

[Phil E.]

Just now, nicknorman said:

Yes it can, however there is an internal dip switch to enable that function. It is off by default and Steve didn’t change that setting when he installed it. It’s something I enabled after we got the boat.

Thanks I’ll check. It’s actually a new Combi and control panel as the original failed shortly after I got the boat

[nicknorman]

10 minutes ago, Phlea said:

 

Another thing I want to work out is whether I can have my third, currently unconnected alternator put into my system so that I’m not purely relying on the Travel P to charge my domestics when out and about- I like redundancy.  The Combi doesn’t seem to have a 12v input (apart from solar) and I wonder whether a second battery charger is possible/desirable. 

 

Interesting stuff this! 
 

An alternator can just be connected to the batteries, it doesn’t really have anything to do with the Combi. We have a Beta 43 with 3 alternators - starter, domestic and travelpower. The travelpower via the Combi, and the domestic alternator, play quite happily together to charge the domestic batteries.

4 minutes ago, Phlea said:

Thanks I’ll check. It’s actually a new Combi and control panel as the original failed shortly after I got the boat

Ah OK, the more recent Mastervolt Combis may be different and there are a couple of models. Exactly which model is it?

 

With the power sharing thing, it is up to you to specify the maximum current taken from the travelpower (using the masterview) beyond which the inverter will kick in to supplement. The Combi can’t know what the maximum travelpower output is because it doesn’t know the engine rpm.

Edited March 10 by nicknorman

[dmr]

Yes, it would be good to connect the third alternator, it can likely just connect directly to the domestic bank though there might be a few minor complications in providing it with an ignition light/feed. The Travelpowers do break and there is only one man (Mr Cox of Cox Autoelectrics) who can fix them so we are a bit vulnerable to failures.

[Phil E.]

I’m pretty sure it’s a Combi Pro, will check when I’m at the boat.

 

Re connecting the third alternator, I was thinking it might upset the clever battery charging algorithms that the Combi seems to have according to the bumph.  If it’s easy to just connect it up that’s great! 

[Tonka]

10 hours ago, nicknorman said:

No our one is 2011 vintage. Dometic Silver box. It can run stand alone with the LEDs to advise about rpm, or with the remote panel. It can produce about 2kw at tickover but not without a lot of stress on the belt.

Just to add, with the engine running, travelpower selected, you should see the LEDs on the Mastervolt Combi change to show ac present light on, inverter light off and charger light on.

 

Your boat was built in 2005 so others might have a better idea of which Travelpower Steve would have fitted. But at a guess I’d say silver box, like ours. The LEDs and rocker switch are well disguised, I’d suggest having a closer look. But surely if the box is hidden away, there’d be a remote panel? Our one looks like this

 

Sorry Nick but I didn't think that the Travelpower's needed that panel. Thank you for putting me right

[nicknorman]

15 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Sorry Nick but I didn't think that the Travelpower's needed that panel. Thank you for putting me right

No you were right, the remote panel is optional.

[Hudds Lad]

Our Hudson is a 2007 and has a 3.5kw Dometic Travelpower fitted in the void behind the electric panel so totally out of view unless you unscrew the panel itself, no remote panel. Tbh i've no idea if it works or not, the only thing i can imagine is related to it is that red/green rocker switch down the bottom above the diesel heater control panel?

A previous owner replaced the Mastervolt Mass Combi with a Victron MultiPlus so no clue if that has any effect either.

I don't understand elecktrickery, it just works for our needs so i don't poke at it.

 

 

[dmr]

Yes, that red + green rocker is the Travelpowe and its turned on, so if its working it should show either a red or green light (they are not very bright). Some/most? travelpowers need a 12 volt feed to work and this should go via a fuse which could be a problem.

[JoeC]

I have a black boxed Travel Power and although I have a different engine (Beta 43) I believe that you are advised to run the engine at 1400 rpm minimum when the TP is switched on. I rarely cruise at 1400rpm!!

[Hudds Lad]

1 minute ago, JoeC said:

I have a black boxed Travel Power and although I have a different engine (Beta 43) I believe that you are advised to run the engine at 1400 rpm minimum when the TP is switched on. I rarely cruise at 1400rpm!!

Perhaps i'll turn it off then and see what happens, it's never been touched so is in that position all the time. Like you, we have a Beta 43.

I'm assuming it's there for the washing machine that we never use (except once to ensure it worked and we were on shorepower then).

[dmr]

5 minutes ago, JoeC said:

I have a black boxed Travel Power and although I have a different engine (Beta 43) I believe that you are advised to run the engine at 1400 rpm minimum when the TP is switched on. I rarely cruise at 1400rpm!!

 

Thats likely due to the known engine mechanical weakness of that engine rather than the needs of the TP. We abuse our TP, its always on so when the engine starts we have 240volts (well 220 but thats another story),. I try not to start the engine with the imersion heater on but often forget and it copes ok. TP has done 22,000 hours now but has had a few visits to Mr Cox.  

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, JoeC said:

I have a black boxed Travel Power and although I have a different engine (Beta 43) I believe that you are advised to run the engine at 1400 rpm minimum when the TP is switched on. I rarely cruise at 1400rpm!!

The Beta 43 manual specifies 1200rpm as the minimum for heavy charging loads, but this may not be enough to get full output from the Travelpower.

[nicknorman]

32 minutes ago, JoeC said:

I have a black boxed Travel Power and although I have a different engine (Beta 43) I believe that you are advised to run the engine at 1400 rpm minimum when the TP is switched on. I rarely cruise at 1400rpm!!

It’s not really related to whether the TP is switched on or not - after all, the TP alternator is spinning with the engine regardless of whether it’s switched on or not - it is to do with the load. At light loads, rpm down to idle is fine. If you want to run something more than a few 100 watts then above idle is advised, even though the TP on a Beta 43 can provide 2kw or more at idle. 1300 rpm or more if you are going to use the full 3.5kW.

It’s worth bearing in mind that the mechanical power input to the TP alternator is the product of rpm and belt force. for a given power, the less the rpm, the more the belt force and vice versa. So at high power, low rpm you get a lot of force on the belt and that of course becomes side force on the pulley and crankshaft. At higher rpm the force is much less for the same power.

 

Also the torque pulses from the engine (each firing stroke etc) and the torque resistance from the alternator (rotor magnet passing field windings) is at a higher frequency at higher rpm and therefore more easily absorbed eg by belt flexing.

Edited March 11 by nicknorman

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

It’s not really related to whether the TP is switched on or not - after all, the TP alternator is spinning with the engine regardless of whether it’s switched on or not - it is to do with the load. At light loads, rpm down to idle is fine. If you want to run something more than a few 100 watts then above idle is advised, even though the TP on a Beta 43 can provide 2kw or more at idle. 1300 rpm or more if you are going to use the full 3.5kW.

It’s worth bearing in mind that the mechanical power input to the TP alternator is the product of rpm and belt force. for a given power, the less the rpm, the more the belt force and vice versa. So at high power, low rpm you get a lot of force on the belt and that of course becomes side force on the pulley and crankshaft. At higher rpm the force is much less for the same power.

 

Also the torque pulses from the engine (each firing stroke etc) and the torque resistance from the alternator (rotor magnet passing field windings) is at a higher frequency at higher rpm and therefore more easily absorbed eg by belt flexing.

How often do you need to change the drive belt for the travelpower and is it a toothed belt similar to a car cam belt?

[IanD]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

It’s not really related to whether the TP is switched on or not - after all, the TP alternator is spinning with the engine regardless of whether it’s switched on or not - it is to do with the load. At light loads, rpm down to idle is fine. If you want to run something more than a few 100 watts then above idle is advised, even though the TP on a Beta 43 can provide 2kw or more at idle. 1300 rpm or more if you are going to use the full 3.5kW.

It’s worth bearing in mind that the mechanical power input to the TP alternator is the product of rpm and belt force. for a given power, the less the rpm, the more the belt force and vice versa. So at high power, low rpm you get a lot of force on the belt and that of course becomes side force on the pulley and crankshaft. At higher rpm the force is much less for the same power.

 

Also the torque pulses from the engine (each firing stroke etc) and the torque resistance from the alternator (rotor magnet passing field windings) is at a higher frequency at higher rpm and therefore more easily absorbed eg by belt flexing.

 

I don't think your middle paragraph is correct for this case though, at these rpms the power output of the 3.5kW Travelpower rises with rpm so the torque load is roughly constant. I found curves for the Travelpower which show this (see attached) -- for the 5kW one the torque peak is around 1500rpm, for the 3.5kW one (not shown) it's lower, and IIRC pretty much flat around 1200prm-1400rpm.

 

The last part is correct though, Beta told me that's why they recommend free-wheeling pulleys with big alternators or Travelpower. The plots also show why you really need an external alternator controller with big alternators (Wakespeed WS500 in this case) to reduce the maximum torque load at low rpm... 😉

 

Edited March 11 by IanD

[nicknorman]

50 minutes ago, Tonka said:

How often do you need to change the drive belt for the travelpower and is it a toothed belt similar to a car cam belt?

Its a 6pk polyvee belt, not a toothed belt. The life depends a lot on how it is used and if it is aligned correctly. Obviously lots of high power usage at low rpm with the belt a bit slack will shorten the life, but time spent "idling" ie not producing any power, won't wear it much. I replaced our first one when it had done about 2000 hrs, there were signs of deterioration ie a few bits of the peaks were missing. I then replaced it again after another 1500 hrs but it was not noticably worn. They are not expensive.

43 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I don't think your middle paragraph is correct for this case though, at these rpms the power output of the 3.5kW Travelpower rises with rpm so the torque load is roughly constant. I found curves for the Travelpower which show this (see attached) -- for the 5kW one the torque peak is around 1500rpm, for the 3.5kW one (not shown) it's lower, and IIRC pretty much flat around 1200prm-1400rpm.

 

 

You missed where I said "for a given power". Unlike an alternator, which tends to supply as much power as it is able according to rpm (especially for Li batteries), a travelpower electrical output depends on the 230v loads connected. So for example if you connect a 1kW load, the TP outputs 1kW wether it be at idle or 2000 engine rpm. The 1kw derives from torque (or belt load) times rpm so the torque will decrease as rpm increases, although of course there is some influence from the fan too so it's not quite that simple.

With a TP you cannot eg connect a 3.5kw load and then accept just 2kw coming out of it at idle - if the rpm is too low for the load, the TP will sag the voltage a bit but then trip off before the voltage gets too low. It will not act like and alternator and provide whatever it can provide for the rpm.

Your graphs show what I am talking about to an extent although for the TP it is not practical because you need to run the engine at an appropriate rpm for the load connected. You can see that the torque decreases at higher rpm. It only doesn't show this behaviour at lower rpms on the graph, because when the graph data was generated, the TP load was adjusted to suit the rpm.

 

Our 2011 boat came with freewheel pulleys on both the TP and the domestic 175A iskra alternator.

 

Managing all this with practical boating (having to slow down to idle regularly to pass moored boats) was a bit tricky when we had the tumble drier on (2kw load) until I limited the TP current to about 5A (just over 1kw) in the Combi, and had the Combi mains support the rest via the inverter part, the Iskra running at 1/2 field current (via the alternator controller) which gives about 75A at idle, and the rest coming from the Li batteries. With the TP and the Iskra being on opposite sides of the engine hopefully the side forces are not too bad even at idle. It does pull the engine rpm down though, normal idle with no electrical load is approaching 900, and it goes below 800 with the 2kw load on. I just don't quite take it to idle under those conditions, keeping it to 850 which is the minimum recommended idle speed.

Edited March 11 by nicknorman

[IanD]

30 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Its a 6pk polyvee belt, not a toothed belt. The life depends a lot on how it is used and if it is aligned correctly. Obviously lots of high power usage at low rpm with the belt a bit slack will shorten the life, but time spent "idling" ie not producing any power, won't wear it much. I replaced our first one when it had done about 2000 hrs, there were signs of deterioration ie a few bits of the peaks were missing. I then replaced it again after another 1500 hrs but it was not noticably worn. They are not expensive.

 

You missed where I said "for a given power". Unlike an alternator, which tends to supply as much power as it is able according to rpm (especially for Li batteries), a travelpower electrical output depends on the 230v loads connected. So for example if you connect a 1kW load, the TP outputs 1kW wether it be at idle or 2000 engine rpm. The 1kw derives from torque (or belt load) times rpm so the torque will decrease as rpm increases, although of course there is some influence from the fan too so it's not quite that simple.

With a TP you cannot eg connect a 3.5kw load and then accept just 2kw coming out of it at idle - if the rpm is too low for the load, the TP will sag the voltage a bit but then trip off before the voltage gets too low. It will not act like and alternator and provide whatever it can provide for the rpm.

Your graphs show what I am talking about to an extent although for the TP it is not practical because you need to run the engine at an appropriate rpm for the load connected. You can see that the torque decreases at higher rpm. It only doesn't show this behaviour at lower rpms on the graph, because when the graph data was generated, the TP load was adjusted to suit the rpm.

 

Our 2011 boat came with freewheel pulleys on both the TP and the domestic 175A iskra alternator.

 

Managing all this with practical boating (having to slow down to idle regularly to pass moored boats) was a bit tricky when we had the tumble drier on (2kw load) until I limited the TP current to about 5A (just over 1kw) in the Combi, and had the Combi mains support the rest via the inverter part, the Iskra running at 1/2 field current (via the alternator controller) which gives about 75A at idle, and the rest coming from the Li batteries. With the TP and the Iskra being on opposite sides of the engine hopefully the side forces are not too bad even at idle. It does pull the engine rpm down though, normal idle with no electrical load is approaching 900, and it goes below 800 with the 2kw load on. I just don't quite take it to idle under those conditions, keeping it to 850 which is the minimum recommended idle speed.

 

Yes you're correct about the loading, I was only looking at maximum power (e.g. for battery charging via the Quattro) not actual AC load power delivered (e.g. 2kW to a washer)... 🙂 

 

If "it goes below 800 with the 2kW load on", isn't this against Beta advice not to run with heavy charging loads below 1200rpm (e.g. 850rpm as you said)?

 

Even if the TP is only delivering 1kW, together with 75A from the alternator (~900W output?) that's a pretty heavy load, drawing something like 3.5kW/4.5hp from the engine allowing for efficiencies.

Edited March 11 by IanD