Boats without a well deck

[Paul C]

Its not considered because it doesn't happen.

Just now, blackrose said:

 

As a widebeam owner what I do is have a bow line on each side which I take from the bow and leave on the cabin top.

 

There's no reaching involved. 

 

It's a simple solution which could be used on any boat.

 

I think it's a bit odd that some people think well decks are the "standard" bow on boats. They're not, not even on narrowboats. Traditional working boats didn't have well decks.

 

How do you "send it back" to the bow to tie it on, once you've (for example) looped it through a mooring ring? Throw it, then walk to the middle of the boat, pull the centre line, then get on the back of the boat, then climb onto the roof or walk along the gunnels (stepping over the centre line, of course)?

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 Traditional working boats didn't have well decks.

Open hold is a bit less likely to have people in it than a luxury fitted cabin.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Its not considered because it doesn't happen.

 

 

What about cilling in a narrow lock with someone in the front? 

 

This is a real event which does happen and can end up with the bows partly submerged. 

 

 

Of course the reason for the sinking may be the fact there are front doors which are open... 

 

 

I suppose it would be better to be stuck in the front unable to get out but also not sinking than for the Boat to sink and be ruined. 

 

If by having side doors the vessel is then sealed and can not sink by the bows that is an interesting factor.

 

 

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

 

What about cilling in a narrow lock with someone in the front? 

 

This is a real event which does happen and can end up with the bows partly submerged. 

 

Good point - it can and does happen to others. For example, https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/contact-and-sinking-of-narrow-boat-drum-major-while-descending-in-steg-neck-lock-on-the-leeds-and-liverpool-canal-near-gargrave-england-with-loss-of-4-lives 

 

Having read that report, I adopted the rule of "everybody outside when locking" when I go boating (but then there's only 2 of us, so its pretty easy to adopt). 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Having read that report, I adopted the rule of "everybody outside when locking" when I go boating (but then there's only 2 of us, so its pretty easy to adopt). 

 

Drum Major entered the lock as normal but before the top gate was shut, a second narrow boat, Dan's Drum, approached, wanting to share the lock and descend together. With both boats in the lock the top gate was shut and the routine of opening the bottom gate paddles to drain the water in the lock started.

 

Very shortly afterwards it was realised that Drum Major's bow fender had caught between the top of the bottom gate and the balance beam above it and, as the water-level began to fall, the bow remained suspended while the stern dropped to such a degree that it started to take water on board. Steps were taken to try to arrest the situation by shutting the bottom gate paddles and opening a top gate paddle. In opening the top gate paddle, however, water started to pour into the stem of Drum Major, and the paddle was quickly closed.

 

Suddenly the bow came free of the bottom gate. The boat dropped heavily and created a large wave that surged through the lock and swamped Drum Major, causing her to fill with water and sink. Attempts to rescue the four disabled people trapped inside were unsuccessful. All four were declared dead at the scene.

 

The report makes a number of recommendations addressed to British Waterways with respect to the reporting and analysis of accidents and hazardous incidents, the adequacy of narrow boat emergency escape routes, and the fitting of weak securing arrangements to bow fenders of the type on Drum Major.

[hughc]

A tug deck makes it so much easier to work a boat and , as a bonus, there is an accessible and safe way of leaving the front end in an emergency. After steering Wyrd for 36 years I would never consider any other design. If you are drawing a plan then ,after a free swimming hull, safe access and ease of working is up there with kitchen and bathroom provision.

[Tonka]

On 14/02/2025 at 09:40, IanD said:

And how does that work for all the GRP cruisers which don't have any direct access from inside at the bow, then?

 

Like I said I'm not bothered about extremely unlikely cases or ones that have never concerned me, I'd rather focus on what works every day. Too many people here are only concerned with rejecting the good because it's not perfect, they'll use something bad that might possibly happen 0.1% of the time (or never) to reject something that is good 99% of the time -- and snipe at others who disagree with them.

 

Every single thing to do with boats -- especially narrowboats -- is a compromise and a matter or personal opinion and choice, and there are always disadvantages to everything as well as advantages. There is no "perfect" answer that suits everyone... 😉 

On the Nauticaus 27 you could go into the cabin then come out of the front hatch which was on the front deck next to the front cleat if you didn't want to walk around the side. Think the Norman's had a similar arrangement

1 hour ago, hughc said:

A tug deck makes it so much easier to work a boat and , as a bonus, there is an accessible and safe way of leaving the front end in an emergency. After steering Wyrd for 36 years I would never consider any other design. If you are drawing a plan then ,after a free swimming hull, safe access and ease of working is up there with kitchen and bathroom provision.

The thing I don't fancy with tug decks is when they put the bed under it. Isn't it claustrophobic, hard to make the bed properly. Don't you get grit and water coming off of your shoes when you come into the cabin ending up in bed with you. Isn't it awkward to get out of to go to the loo in the night.

[Victor Vectis]

23 hours ago, Alway Swilby said:

Each to their own. Personally I think its wrong to use an upper case B every time the word boat is typed and should be made illegal. It really really annoys me, but hey, you do your annoying thing and I'll keep my pram cover. 🙂

Yeahbut........How do you deal with heathen folk who say train station?

[IanD]

4 hours ago, magnetman said:

Open hold is a bit less likely to have people in it than a luxury fitted cabin.

 

What about cilling in a narrow lock with someone in the front? 

 

This is a real event which does happen and can end up with the bows partly submerged. 

 

Of course the reason for the sinking may be the fact there are front doors which are open... 

 

I suppose it would be better to be stuck in the front unable to get out but also not sinking than for the Boat to sink and be ruined. 

 

If by having side doors the vessel is then sealed and can not sink by the bows that is an interesting factor.

 

Why would you be "stuck in the front, unable to get out" when you can walk inside the boat to the stern -- you know, the end where the steerer is that *isn’t* sinking?

 

And of course if you don't have a well deck (with scuppers) or front doors, the bows can also go down a *very* long way without the boat taking on lots of water... 😉

 

So if you're worried about sinking in locks or being trapped inside by a cilling, I'd say it's much safer than a "normal" boat... 🙂

Edited February 15, 2025 by IanD

[Jon57]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

On the Nauticaus 27 you could go into the cabin then come out of the front hatch which was on the front deck next to the front cleat if you didn't want to walk around the side. Think the Norman's had a similar arrangement

The thing I don't fancy with tug decks is when they put the bed under it. Isn't it claustrophobic, hard to make the bed properly. Don't you get grit and water coming off of your shoes when you come into the cabin ending up in bed with you. Isn't it awkward to get out of to go to the loo in the night.

Not on mine. Room for a king size fixed bed. Floor to ceiling height 3ft. Cupboard before water tank. Finrad radiator below. Storage under bed access from cabin. You can sit up in bed if you want. Granted I'm not 6ft 6in and 16 stone. Going to the toilet is not a problem as you don't disturb SWNMBO. No dirty shoes or mud anywhere. Steps removed at night and stow at the side of the bed under the deck. 😁

[rogher]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

The thing I don't fancy with tug decks is when they put the bed under it. Isn't it claustrophobic, hard to make the bed properly. Don't you get grit and water coming off of your shoes when you come into the cabin ending up in bed with you. Isn't it awkward to get out of to go to the loo in the night.

 

(- If the bed's permanently under the deck, I'm not sure that you're going to muck the bedding with dirty footwear ?-)

I imagine that you'd poke your feet towards the bow to avoid claustrophobia. There's a good many folk sleeping in similar confinement in camper van Luton tops (but not me). Those beds must be damn awkward to make up, unless you resort to a sleeping bag.

 

The reason I've had two boats (so far) with an end bed is that either party can visit the loo at night without disturbing the other. You just have to remember not to get out from the side, which you are soon reminded of should you forget! It's not awkward if there's no footboard to clamber over and the bed's not ridiculously high. Most other beds require one to climb over the other if such a visit is required, and that is the reason I value an 'end bed' arrangement. When younger that particular need never arose but you are likely to find that it becomes so in later years.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, rogher said:

 

(- If the bed's permanently under the deck, I'm not sure that you're going to muck the bedding with dirty footwear ?-)

I imagine that you'd poke your feet towards the bow to avoid claustrophobia. There's a good many folk sleeping in similar confinement in camper van Luton tops (but not me). Those beds must be damn awkward to make up, unless you resort to a sleeping bag.

 

The reason I've had two boats (so far) with an end bed is that either party can visit the loo at night without disturbing the other. You just have to remember not to get out from the side, which you are soon reminded of should you forget! It's not awkward if there's no footboard to clamber over and the bed's not ridiculously high. Most other beds require one to climb over the other if such a visit is required, and that is the reason I value an 'end bed' arrangement. When younger that particular need never arose but you are likely to find that it becomes so in later years.

That's one reason my bed is lengthwise with a cross- walkway at the foot, I can slide out of the bottom and walk around to the loo... 🙂

[Jon57]

Just now, IanD said:

That's one reason my bed is lengthwise with a cross- walkway at the foot, I can slide out of the bottom and walk around to the loo... 🙂

👍 

Edited February 15, 2025 by Jon57

[rogher]

13 minutes ago, IanD said:

That's one reason my bed is lengthwise with a cross- walkway at the foot, I can slide out of the bottom and walk around to the loo... 🙂

I'd go with that, but prefer not to sleep 'up-hill'.

[Jon57]

Just now, rogher said:

I'd go with that, but prefer not to sleep 'up-hill'.

No need. Head first ever time. 

[magnetman]

29 minutes ago, IanD said:

Why would you be "stuck in the front, unable to get out" when you can walk inside the boat to the stern -- you know, the end where the steerer is that *isn’t* sinking?
 

 

its not going to be easy walking uphill on the floor of a Boat in an emergency situation.

 

Of course if you are disciplined and never have people in the front its ok. 

 

I guess it is a private owners suite so unlikely any visitors would be in there. 

 

 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, rogher said:

I'd go with that, but prefer not to sleep 'up-hill'.

Not an issue, unless your boat is ballasted *very* bow-high. The slope along the length of the bed on mine is half an inch or so, completely unnoticeable unless you go to bed with a spirit-level as a companion... 😉 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Just now, magnetman said:

its not going to be easy walking uphill on the floor of a Boat in an emergency situation.

an emergency rope ladder that falls free and unravels when the boat reaches 30 degrees might be the answer. 
 

or little steps that roll out from the floor? 
 

but what’s point of walking up hill to a closed bulkhead??

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

its not going to be easy walking uphill on the floor of a Boat in an emergency situation.

 

Of course if you are disciplined and never have people in the front its ok. 

 

I guess it is a private owners suite so unlikely any visitors would be in there. 

 

If the slope is steep enough to be a problem you've already sunk... 😞 

 

I try and not have anyone inside the boat at locks for all the obvious reasone, including keeping them busy steering or doing the lock... 😉 

[magnetman]

Just now, 5239 said:

an emergency rope ladder that falls free and unravels when the boat reaches 30 degrees might be the answer. 
 

or little steps that roll out from the floor? 
 

but what’s point of walking up hill to a closed bulkhead??

Usually it is the back end which goes on the cill so one would be walking uphill to the starn doors because the side doors will not open .

 

I agree with IanD about the flooding risk but I still think there is a risk here if a helicopter crashes onto the Boat and explodes while cilled in a narrow lock. 

 

 

[IanD]

21 minutes ago, 5239 said:

an emergency rope ladder that falls free and unravels when the boat reaches 30 degrees might be the answer. 
 

or little steps that roll out from the floor? 
 

but what’s point of walking up hill to a closed bulkhead??

Huh? Most common case is stern on the cill, that's where the doors are? Closed bulkhead is at the sinking pointy end where you don't want to be...

 

(yes there have been *very* occasional exceptions like Drum, as opposed to the dozens of stern cillings every year -- I prefer to worry about bigger risks, not negligibly tiny ones -- see below...)

 

18 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Usually it is the back end which goes on the cill so one would be walking uphill to the starn doors because the side doors will not open .

 

I agree with IanD about the flooding risk but I still think there is a risk here if a helicopter crashes onto the Boat and explodes while cilled in a narrow lock. 

 

Or if you're struck by a meteorite, that could punch a hole straight down through the hull and sink you in seconds...

Edited February 15, 2025 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Just now, magnetman said:

Usually it is the back end which goes on the cill so one would be walking uphill to the starn doors because the side doors will not open .

 

I agree with IanD about the flooding risk but I still think there is a risk here if a helicopter crashes onto the Boat and explodes while cilled in a narrow lock. 

 

 

oh the old odd cilling,

thought we were on about the bow in the gate up in air,

 

How about ejector beds ?

as soon as water is detected on an overhanging blanket the bed is ejected through the top and lands safely bank side so the occupants sleep through the goings on. 

 

 

[magnetman]

Person at the paddles is hit by a bird shot by a nearby farmer with his fowling piece

Person knocked unconscious and windlass accidentally ejected onto the throttle control full astern .

Boat drops on the cill resulting in it going down at the front far enough to breach the hermetically sealed air vents. 

 

It was a duck. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, 5239 said:

oh the old odd cilling,

thought we were on about the bow in the gate up in air,

 

How about ejector beds ?

as soon as water is detected on an overhanging blanket the bed is ejected through the top and lands safely bank side so the occupants sleep through the goings on. 

 

 

I suggested rocket powered ejector some pages ago. 

 

An ejector bed could be handy as a way to ensure ones afternoon forty winks is not disturbed. 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, 5239 said:

 

How about ejector beds 

 

On 13/02/2025 at 15:16, magnetman said:

 

 

What is ideal is to have a rocket powered ejector module with a parachute. 

 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

19 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Person at the paddles is hit by a bird shot by a nearby farmer with his fowling piece

Person knocked unconscious and windlass accidentally ejected onto the throttle control full astern .

Boat drops on the cill resulting in it going down at the front far enough to breach the hermetically sealed air vents. 

 

It was a duck. 

 

 

 

I suggested rocket powered ejector some pages ago. 

 

An ejector bed could be handy as a way to ensure ones afternoon forty winks is not disturbed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yes a parachute 🪂 

a lovely idea,

…dreamy 

[IanD]

28 minutes ago, 5239 said:

oh the old odd cilling,

thought we were on about the bow in the gate up in air,

 

How about ejector beds ?

as soon as water is detected on an overhanging blanket the bed is ejected through the top and lands safely bank side so the occupants sleep through the goings on. 

 

 

Oh come on, you've seen Thunderbirds and SpaceX landings -- never mind the bed, just have rocket thrusters on the whole boat... 😉 

Edited February 15, 2025 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, rogher said:

I'd go with that, but prefer not to sleep 'up-hill'.

We have a cross bed and it depends which  side is aground 

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Person at the paddles is hit by a bird shot by a nearby farmer with his fowling piece

Person knocked unconscious and windlass accidentally ejected onto the throttle control full astern .

Boat drops on the cill resulting in it going down at the front far enough to breach the hermetically sealed air vents. 

 

It was a duck. 

 

 

 

I suggested rocket powered ejector some pages ago. 

 

An ejector bed could be handy as a way to ensure ones afternoon forty winks is not disturbed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just get Wallace and Gromet on the job