Boats without a well deck

[magnetman]

55 minutes ago, IanD said:

Thanks for the suggestion -- that's probably what I'd do anyway, it's the obvious solution 🙂 

 

Out of curiosity, what do singlehanders do? They can't simultaneously be on the bow and at the stern...

Tie the back on first then go to the front and tie that on. Thats how I have done it in Limehouse which has the vertical wires. 

17 minutes ago, David Mack said:

... that probably also attracts condensation...

Its easy enough to line a steel hatch with insulation and a wooden lining. No condensation. 

 

A houdini would probably cause condensation but not a properly designed slider. It also won't leak. 

 

Properly designed are the keywords. 

 

 

Anyone worried about condensation is obviously experiencing a general failure in the heating and ventilation systems. 

 

No need for condensation anywhere. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2025 by magnetman
typo and the norma problems

[haggis]

This thread had reminded me of one experience 

we had coming upstream in Cromwell lock which we had been through many times before.

I was on the bow deck and put the rope round the riser and round the T stud and back to me.

Across the lock from us  were two narrow boats . The inside one had a rope through a riser at each end and the outside one had his centre rope over the top of the other boat and he held it while standing on the roof. The lock was fairly full of boats.

The lockie opened the paddles and I had difficulty holding the boat in and the boat on the inside opposite couldn't hold their bows and they shot across the lock taking the one with the guy on the roof with it. I don't know how he managed to stay on his roof as the boat banged around. 

It is a deep lock and there seemed no way of getting the attention of the lock keeper who was out of site while the lock filled.

It was a scary experiment and I would never try to hold the front of a narrow boat in a lock unless I was safely within the well deck 

Edited February 14, 2025 by haggis

[magnetman]

If it is a vertical wire one can put the rope around and tie it off on the Boat. 

 

The requirement is for the Boat to be secured not specifically for the person on the Boat to be holding the rope.

 

I don't go through many locks with vertical bars or wires but Limehouse has the wires and the obvious thing is to tie the Boat up. 

 

 

 

Have ropes which will break before pulling the Boat over in case of jamming. 

[haggis]

I like the theory of tying the boat up when the rope is round the riser. but I find that the rope seldom slides up and needs a helping hand 

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, haggis said:

I like the theory of tying the boat up when the rope is round the riser. but I find that the rope seldom slides up and needs a helping hand 

 

thats interesting. I think it will slide up but I have never been through the lock you refer to. 

 

There is an argument for having a rope with a section of chain to make it more smooth but thats getting a bit complicated. 

Or a large carabiner to clip on. 

 

At Limehouse on the wires it may seem like the rope wll jam but it actually doesn't. It moves up with the Boat. The Boat is very buoyant and reluctant to be drawn downwards in the water. 

 

 

[haggis]

I am possibly thinking of some of  the locks on the Trent between Cromwell and Nottingham where the sliders can stick. On the Weaver the ropes go round bollards but the locks are fairly gentle . Can't think of any other locks with risers but I am sure there are some 

[magnetman]

Oh right. If there is an actual sliding piece of hardware thats different. I thought this was a vertical rod or tight wire. 

 

When going up think I would probably loop the rope around whatever the sliding object is supposed to move up and down on rather than relying on a separate piece of hardware which may or may not work properly. 

[haggis]

Sorry for adding to the confusion. The risers I am thinking of are vertical, fixed in place  and often encased in a yellow sleeve. They don't actually move but I find sometimes the rope sticks instead of sliding up or down as the lock fills or empties. 

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, haggis said:

I like the theory of tying the boat up when the rope is round the riser. but I find that the rope seldom slides up and needs a helping hand 

 

Indeed they do (get stuck and need sliding up)

 

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Oh right. If there is an actual sliding piece of hardware thats different. I thought this was a vertical rod or tight wire. 

 

 

It is, but they tend to get a bit of a rough surface (normally blue alkathene water pipe is slid over the wires) it gets chewed up and the ropes 'jags' on the tube and sticks - I've never left it long enough to find if the boat eventualy drags it up - you don't mess about in those locks - you need to stay awake to whats happening.

[magnetman]

OK. In Limehouse its just stainless steel wires about 15mm diameter. Adding a pipe might seem to make it better but its just a fouling opportunity. 

 

 

[Alway Swilby]

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

 

 

Its just wrong to have a pram hood. These things should be made illegal. 

 

Each to their own. Personally I think its wrong to use an upper case B every time the word boat is typed and should be made illegal. It really really annoys me, but hey, you do your annoying thing and I'll keep my pram cover. 🙂

Edited February 14, 2025 by Alway Swilby

[magnetman]

I vote for canopies of all sorts on Boats remaining legal. 

 

 

 

I did meet someone once who lost a very expensive pram hood due to an unexpected interaction between the Boat and a tree. I suppose on canals they are usually folded down so presumably this risk is reduced. 

 

 

[b00ke23]

2 hours ago, Alway Swilby said:

Each to their own. Personally I think its wrong to use an upper case B every time the word boat is typed and should be made illegal. It really really annoys me, but hey, you do your annoying thing and I'll keep my pram cover. 🙂

 

His boat might actually be named 'Boat', in which case it would be correct!

Edited February 14, 2025 by booke23

[magnetman]

I initially read it as 'upper class B' ! 

 

Upper case. Oh yes. 

 

 

 

I allocate capitalisation to Very Important Things. 

[MrsM]

1 hour ago, haggis said:

I am possibly thinking of some of  the locks on the Trent between Cromwell and Nottingham where the sliders can stick. On the Weaver the ropes go round bollards but the locks are fairly gentle . Can't think of any other locks with risers but I am sure there are some 

That was our local patch. In several locks the plastic sheaf covering the risers had cracked or split and it was this that our lines often snagged on. Not enough to sink a boat (I expect) but a bit alarming when you are holding onto the other end of the line.

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

There is a real occupant safety question. 

 

if there is a fire blocking other exits during the night what one wants to do  bearing in mind tiredness, maybe a beer or two, and disorientation due to the electrics failing, is to get out of the Boat safely. Some people may panic in this situation and make poor choices. 

 

If one were to choose a side exit there is a fair chance of getting the wrong one. Do you always remember which way round the Boat is? In this event you could end up in the canal. 

 

If it is a front door one exits onto a deck and there is half a moment to decide which way the land is. 

 

Then you step off the Boat. 

 

I find the idea of only having side doors quite hazardous. 

 

 

 

I would suggest that probably all the people who have died in Narrowboat fires were in one fitted with doors at each end and non were on a boat with side doors

[Jon57]

5 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Indeed -- but if I ever did need to get to the bows to tie them up in such a lock I'd either walk along the gunwales or step up onto the roof (easy via the seats in the semi-trad area), walk along the roof (no obstacles), step down onto the bow cabin roof (also easy) and then pick up the bow rope.

 

I've done both with no problems. Wouldn't work on all boats, but does for me. There's more than one way to skin a cat... 😉 

Certainly is. I had what people call a modern boat. Trad stern. Well deck cratch cover 2 side hatches. Fixed rear bed, raised dinette. Modern engine, port holes. Stable glazed front doors. Floating caravan really. Nice johnathan Wilson shell. The list goes on. Now have a tug with a boatmans cabin. Vintage engine. Front king size bed at the front. 4 side hatches, 2 with opening roof hatches. Front doors and sliding hatch. It's just works great for us. So did the other boat. But this current boat makes boating fun and challenging at the same time. It's all about what makes you feel comfortable with really. We do the Trent, Ouse. Seven. Thames and many others and working the locks with this boat is a thing of beauty. ⛴️⛴️👍

Edited February 14, 2025 by Jon57
Addition

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

5 hours ago, IanD said:

Out of curiosity, what do singlehanders do? They can't simultaneously be on the bow and at the stern...

 You just use your centre line and use the engine F&R to compensate for the lock flow. I’ve never been told by the lock keepers that I need someone on the bow line. If the lock is full, I just put a few back/forth runs on, around the riser to centre eye through a karabiner clipped to centre eye and hold the boat that way, whilst standing on the roof. 

Edited February 14, 2025 by BoatingLifeUpNorth2

[Jon57]

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

 

thats interesting. I think it will slide up but I have never been through the lock you refer to. 

 

There is an argument for having a rope with a section of chain to make it more smooth but thats getting a bit complicated. 

Or a large carabiner to clip on. 

 

At Limehouse on the wires it may seem like the rope wll jam but it actually doesn't. It moves up with the Boat. The Boat is very buoyant and reluctant to be drawn downwards in the water. 

 

 

Or a nappy pin with rope on

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Or a nappy pin with rope on

 

The sliders are inset into the lock wall by several inches, you would not get a nappy pin in the 'channel' - it can sometimes  be a fiddle to even get a rope in and fed around the slider.

[Jon57]

47 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The sliders are inset into the lock wall by several inches, you would not get a nappy pin in the 'channel' - it can sometimes  be a fiddle to even get a rope in and fed around the slider.

Well I've not had a problem with my nappy pin on a risers. Hold it vertical and twist simple. Your nappy pins must be a lot bigger possibly 😉 if you can get a 16mm diameter rope behind the risers which are slack anyway a nappy pin is a piece of cake. Also your ropes don't get covered in slime. 

Edited February 14, 2025 by Jon57
Addition

[IanD]

1 hour ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

 You just use your centre line and use the engine F&R to compensate for the lock flow. I’ve never been told by the lock keepers that I need someone on the bow line. If the lock is full, I just put a few back/forth runs on, around the riser to centre eye through a karabiner clipped to centre eye and hold the boat that way, whilst standing on the roof. 

That was kind of my point -- all these "oh my god you can't stand in the well deck with a rope" objections simply don't seem to be an issue in real life. Just like many of the other objections to almost anything posted on CWDF... 😉

 

I don't know why more boaters don't keep a few carabiners on board, they can come in really handy sometimes e.g. round a riser, or in my case to attach a spring line to the eyes on the gunwale.

 

Maybe it's because some boaters don't want to acknowledge that anything new or from outside the "traditional boating" world has any merit, and certainly not something from a completely different field like climbing... 😉 

Edited February 14, 2025 by IanD

[Paul C]

Its a "no" from me, purely from the extra effort required to stretch over and grab the bowline EVERY TIME you need to moor up. Its much easier to do the various tasks needed with the bowline from within a well deck. It wouldn't take too much extra distance from bank to boat (you know, at those shallow canal edges, curved sections, missing armco, irregular bank, etc) to put that bowline tantalisingly out of reach (where on a normal boat, it would be a stretch but possible to get into the well deck) and then you're walking along the gunnel or walking along the roof, as IanD has explained the access route is. 

 

Turns a 5 minute mooring task into a PITA.

 

I agree that the "no escape access" isn't really the big issue, because the likelihood of needing to do it are so small an inconvenience there can be tolerated.

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

 

I agree that the "no escape access" isn't really the big issue, because the likelihood of needing to do it are so small an inconvenience there can be tolerated.

 

If someone happened to be resting on the bed and there was a. electrical fire while in an empty narrow lock that person is toast.

 

No escape. 

 

Yes it is unlikely but a lot of people do view corpses on the Boat as more than a small inconvenience.

 

Of course if nobody -ever- uses the bed during times when the vessel is in motion that is a good rule but it could happen.

 

Another thing I bet is not considered in this scenario is the possibility, which is unlikely but could happen, of a bad actor / crazy nutter coming aboard unauthorised to burgle things while the occupiers are asleep. said occupiers are tight up against the front bulkhead. If the bad actor (not Tom Cruise) is aggressive there is a necessity for the Boat owner to win the duel as they do not have the option of getting out of bed and exiting. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

Its a "no" from me, purely from the extra effort required to stretch over and grab the bowline EVERY TIME you need to moor up. Its much easier to do the various tasks needed with the bowline from within a well deck. 

 

As a widebeam owner what I do is have a bow line on each side which I take from the bow and leave on the cabin top.

 

There's no stretching involved. 

 

It's a simple solution which could be used on any boat.

 

I think it's a bit odd that some people think well decks are the "standard" bow on boats. They're not, not even on narrowboats. Traditional working boats didn't have well decks.

Edited February 15, 2025 by blackrose