Boats without a well deck

[magnetman]

3 minutes ago, rogher said:

 

Of course, if you have no intention of visiting such places, there's no need to be bothered.

There is a real occupant safety question. 

 

if there is a fire blocking other exits during the night what one wants to do  bearing in mind tiredness, maybe a beer or two, and disorientation due to the electrics failing, is to get out of the Boat safely. Some people may panic in this situation and make poor choices. 

 

If one were to choose a side exit there is a fair chance of getting the wrong one. Do you always remember which way round the Boat is? In this event you could end up in the canal. 

 

If it is a front door one exits onto a deck and there is half a moment to decide which way the land is. 

 

Then you step off the Boat. 

 

I find the idea of only having side doors quite hazardous. 

 

 

 

 

 

As for aesthetics I am slightly offended by a scene so tranquil and pleasant being spoiled by hideous monstrosities like pram hoods. 

 

Its just wrong to have a pram hood. These things should be made illegal. 

 

[cheesegas]

9 minutes ago, rogher said:

I like to see traditionally painted boats on the cut and also hear the sound of their vintage engines 

but I'd rather own a modern boat with its comforts and convenience from which to enjoy that experience.

Looking 'pretty' or 'right' is less important than being comfortable and safe.

This is how I feel too. Whenever I see and hear a trad boat go past with a vintage RN or JP3 in an engine room, I suddenly really want one. However, I only have to stay on one for a day to realise how much better my boring Liverpool boat with a cruiser stern and modern engine is to live on. Quick to get in from either end whilst carrying a Brompton and a backpack, plenty of space on the stern to double as a workshop, nice easy to grab roof rails rather than a little lip, big gunnels.

[b00ke23]

6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

maybe a beer or two, 

 

An excellent point as inebriation seems to play a part in boat fire fatalities.

 

As escape route that seems obvious and easy in the cold light of day takes on a whole different character in a dark, smoke filled cabin. The principles of K.I.S.S. come to mind. 

 

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, rogher said:

I like to see traditionally painted boats on the cut and also hear the sound of their vintage engines 

but I'd rather own a modern boat with its comforts and convenience from which to enjoy that experience.

Looking 'pretty' or 'right' is less important than being comfortable and safe. Indeed, my preference is to be as inconspicuous as possible rather than stand out to be noticed.

A pram cover is a practical solution, to be able to use the rear in inclement weather, as is a cratch for the bow. If they become a safety hazard by hindering access, that's a different matter. What they look like from the outside is less important than how the world appears from within.

It was for more of a safety concern that I raised the issue of bow access and a safe place to work from, particularly if visiting rivers where each end needs to be tied-up in a lock.

Of course, if you have no intention of visiting such places, there's no need to be bothered.

 

Indeed -- but if I ever did need to get to the bows to tie them up in such a lock I'd either walk along the gunwales or step up onto the roof (easy via the seats in the semi-trad area), walk along the roof (no obstacles), step down onto the bow cabin roof (also easy) and then pick up the bow rope.

 

I've done both with no problems. Wouldn't work on all boats, but does for me. There's more than one way to skin a cat... 😉 

Edited February 14, 2025 by IanD

[magnetman]

Toe rails are much smaller than cants.

Working Boats often do have toe rails .

 

Working on the front there would be a temptation to put a foot on the cant. 

 

If one were to do that while holding a line during a lock operation there is a significant risk of slipping. 

 

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, magnetman said:

There is a real occupant safety question. 

 

if there is a fire blocking other exits during the night what one wants to do  bearing in mind tiredness, maybe a beer or two, and disorientation due to the electrics failing, is to get out of the Boat safely. Some people may panic in this situation and make poor choices. 

 

If one were to choose a side exit there is a fair chance of getting the wrong one. Do you always remember which way round the Boat is? In this event you could end up in the canal. 

 

If it is a front door one exits onto a deck and there is half a moment to decide which way the land is. 

 

Then you step off the Boat. 

 

I find the idea of only having side doors quite hazardous. 

 

As for aesthetics I am slightly offended by a scene so tranquil and pleasant being spoiled by hideous monstrosities like pram hoods. 

 

Its just wrong to have a pram hood. These things should be made illegal. 

 

You do seem to find lots of things quite hazardous and worry a lot about them... 😉 

 

Chances of a fire (on a boat with no gas or petrol or stove) -- very small, most boat fires are from these three causes.

 

Chances of then not being able to get out of side hatch or then falling in the cut -- small, which is why the BSS accepts this for fire safety.

 

But if this worries you, then of course nobody's making you have a boat without front doors. I'm perfectly happy with my boat with side doors, which is what matters to me... 🙂 

 

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Toe rails are much smaller than cants.

Working Boats often do have toe rails .

 

Working on the front there would be a temptation to put a foot on the cant. 

 

If one were to do that while holding a line during a lock operation there is a significant risk of slipping. 

 

If I was on the boat doing this, I'd be sitting comfortably (and safely) on the bow cabin... 😉 

Edited February 14, 2025 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

And how does that work for all the GRP cruisers which don't have any direct access from inside at the bow, then?

 

My cruisers all have had safe access to the bow - even the 14 foot Bonwitco.

Opening forward hatch you can get your head, shoulders and arms thru' (you can see the anchor chain coming down the pipe and into the box on the right hand side) easy to do anything on the bow within the safety of the cabin.

 

 

My big Dory even had a full opening door to access the bow.

 

 

 

 

If you plan to be on rivers or tidal waters it is something you need to consider, but, you are obviously happy to stay on the canals - your choice and your boat meets your needs.

Edited February 14, 2025 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

You do seem to find lots of things quite hazardous and worry about them... 😉 

 

Chances of a fire (on a boat with no gas or petrol or stove) -- very small, most boat fires are from these three causes.

 

Chances of then not being able to get out of side hatch and then falling in the cut -- small, which is why the BSS accepts this for fire safety.

 

But if this worries you, then of course nobody's making you have a boat without front doors. I'm perfectly happy with my boat, which is what matters to me... 🙂 

 

It doesn't worry me at all. 

 

I just like thinking about accidents. Always telling the children made up on the spot stories about crazy accidents.

 

The point is that if something unexpected does happen its not all that straightforward to handle at the time. 

 

I didn't think the BS was worried about fire exits. Never noticed it but then I always have exits anyway. 

 

I feel a narrow without a forward facing exit is poor design. 

 

As you say it is up to people what the do. 

 

I actually have a very high risk tolerance personally. Have had endless numbers of near misses where I could have died or being severely injured but it was all fine. 

 

The biggest reason I like front doors is to get in and out and to see forwards from in the cabin. 

 

If you wanted to see in front from a side door you could look out only for a silent Boat to creep up from the other direction and break your head off. 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2025 by magnetman

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

My cruisers all have had safe access to the bow - even the 14 foot Bonwitco.

Opening forward hatch you can get your head, shoulders and arms thru' (you can see the anchor chain coming down the pipe and into the box on the right hand side) easy to do anything on the bow within the safety of the cabin.

 

 

My big Dory even had a full opening door to access the bow.

 

 

 

 

If you plan to be on rivers or tidal waters it is something you need to consider, but, you are obviously happy to stay on the canals - your choice and the boats meets your needs.

 

I should point out that I've been on rivers on several occasions -- even the tidal Trent! -- and now have a good anchor setup for next time I do this (thank you for the recommendations!), but I certainly wouldn't want to go out on tidal waters in a narrowboat, for all sorts of reasons... 😉 

[TheBiscuits]

16 minutes ago, IanD said:

There's more than one way to skin a cat... 😉 

 

Number 18: Sandblasting

[rogher]

I've never considered a side hatch to be an escape route. They're difficult to use as a an exit at the best of times and would be even less so in adverse conditions. Most have no steps to the gunwale nor a lid (I cannot think of the correct term) to let you exit vertically.

 

I consider a side hatch to be for additional ventilation and, maybe, for feeding the occasional water creature.

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

It doesn't worry me at all. 

 

I just like thinking about accidents. Always telling the children made up on the spot stories about crazy accidents.

 

The point is that if something unexpected does happen its not all that straightforward to handle at the time. 

 

I didn't think the BS was worried about fire exits. Never noticed it but then I always have exits anyway. 

 

I feel a narrow without a forward facing exit is poor design. 

 

As you say it is up to people what the do. 

 

I actually have a very high risk tolerance personally. The biggest reason I like front doors is to get in and out and to see forwards from in the cabin. 

 

If you wanted to see in front from a side door you could look out only for a silent Boat to creep up from the other direction and break your head off. 

 

 

In other words you don't like reverse layout boats, which is absolutely your choice -- and on a traditional layout boat with the saloon at the front, of course front doors (and well deck?) are the best choice, which is why they're so common.

 

Many people nowadays -- including me -- prefer a reverse layout (bedroom closest to the bows) for all sorts of reasons, and a front exit makes little sense in this case, certainly not for everyday use.

 

8 minutes ago, rogher said:

I've never considered a side hatch to be an escape route. They're difficult to use as a an exit at the best of times and would be even less so in adverse conditions. Most have no steps to the gunwale nor a lid (I cannot think of the correct term) to let you exit vertically.

 

I consider a side hatch to be for additional ventilation and, maybe, for feeding the occasional water creature.

The BSS is quite happy with them for emergency use, and so am I. Of course they're not ideal, but neither are breakout/opening windows or Houdini hatches or tiny fall-out-onto-the-bows doors over a full-width bed, all of which are also acceptable to BSS. The odds of me ever having to use any of them are minute anyway, given the lack of most of the common causes of boat fires...

 

The side hatch in the bedroom has hardly ever been opened, flashing is unpopular in the circles I move in. The ones either side of the dinette often are, for exactly the reasons you said... 🙂 

 

11 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Number 18: Sandblasting

 

Doesn't skin it, only gets the fur off. A bit like de-bristling a dead pig with kettles of boiling water and a scraper/knife, thoroughly unpleasant... 😞 

Edited February 14, 2025 by IanD

[magnetman]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Many people nowadays -- including me -- prefer a reverse layout (bedroom closest to the bows) for all sorts of reasons, and a front exit makes little sense in this case, certainly not for everyday use.

If I had your Boat I would definitely put doors on the front even if only half doors and a sliding hatch over the bow cabin.

 

Its not about the layout its about having doors to get out of the front. 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

I should point out that I've been on rivers on several occasions -- even the tidal Trent! -- and now have a good anchor setup for next time I do this (thank you for the recommendations!)

 

If you plan to go thru Cromwell lock and further upstream you will need to have someone on  the bow to secure the bow to the 'sliders'.

Just a suggestion - It may be advantageous to use the lock landings to get your crew postioned and secure before entering the lock.

[IanD]

Just now, magnetman said:

If I had your Boat I would definitely put doors on the front even if only half doors and a sliding hatch over the bow cabin.

 

Its not about the layout its about having doors to get out of the front. 

 

The doors over the bow cabin would be about a foot high -- it's not empty inside, it's full of clothes storage... 😉 

[magnetman]

Just now, IanD said:

 

The doors over the bow cabin would be about a foot high -- it's not empty inside, it's full of clothes storage... 😉 

That would be fine. With a sliding hatch above. Nice and easy to get out of and assuming the bed is there one can watch the stars on a pleasant night. 

 

Lovely. 

 

 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you plan to go thru Cromwell lock and further upstream you will need to have someone on  the bow to secure the bow to the 'sliders'.

Just a suggestion - It may be advantageous to use the lock landings to get your crew postioned and secure before entering the lock.

Thanks for the suggestion -- that's probably what I'd do anyway, it's the obvious solution 🙂 

 

Out of curiosity, what do singlehanders do? They can't simultaneously be on the bow and at the stern...

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

given the lack of most of the common causes of boat fires...

 

You seem to have a fixation about fire.

It is way more likely that the boat is cilled, hung-up or taking on water which would mean the side hatch is not available to you.

 

Extract from the BSS :

 

In such cases, where a side hatch provides one of the two means of escape, published BSS guidance for
boat owners is that the escape route may not be effective in certain emergency situations. For example, in
a narrow lock it may not be possible to open side hatch doors.
Also, in the event of a narrowboat being hung-up in a lock, using a side hatch as a means of escape may
itself place the occupants in further danger.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

That would be fine. With a sliding hatch above. Nice and easy to get out of and assuming the bed is there one can watch the stars on a pleasant night. 

 

Lovely.

 

 

Two small problems -- that's the foot end of the bed, and the last thing I want in a bedroom is a potentially leaky draughty sliding hatch... 😉 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

12 minutes ago, rogher said:

I've never considered a side hatch to be an escape route. They're difficult to use as a an exit at the best of times and would be even less so in adverse conditions. Most have no steps to the gunwale nor a lid (I cannot think of the correct term) to let you exit vertically.

 

I consider a side hatch to be for additional ventilation and, maybe, for feeding the occasional water creature.

my gunnels are below the bank on 90% of the places I moor so the side doors would never open fully in an emergency,

they do have a lid as you call it, on a hinge,

but I’m possibly too fat to escape through the lid,

 

 

8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

That would be fine. With a sliding hatch above. Nice and easy to get out of and assuming the bed is there one can watch the stars on a pleasant night. 

 

Lovely. 

 

 

but a sliding hatch would loose that ever so sought after space for solar panels 🤷‍♀️

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You seem to have a fixation about fire.

It is way more likely that the boat is cilled, hung-up or taking on water which would mean the side hatch is not available to you.

 

Extract from the BSS :

 

In such cases, where a side hatch provides one of the two means of escape, published BSS guidance for
boat owners is that the escape route may not be effective in certain emergency situations. For example, in
a narrow lock it may not be possible to open side hatch doors.
Also, in the event of a narrowboat being hung-up in a lock, using a side hatch as a means of escape may
itself place the occupants in further danger.

I'm perfectly well aware what the BSS says, thank you -- the fire fixation was replying to other posters.

 

If the boat is cilled going down -- by far the most common cause of lock sinkings -- then the stern will be going up and the bows down -- why would I want to get out at the bows?

 

If the bows hang up under something going up -- the next most common cause -- the same applies.

 

While cruising there will rarely be anyone in the bedroom anyway, if they're inside the most likely place is the dinette/kitchen at the stern -- again, no need to exit at the bows.

 

And having a watertight bow with no well deck eliminates one potential cause of sinking which is filling up the well deck from a leaky gate -- which I've had almost happen in the past.

 

Given the amount of time I spent designing the boat, do you really think I didn't consider all this, based on many boating holiday over many years on many boats covering most of the UK canal system?

 

Of course I did, and I made my decisions looking at all the tradeoffs, and chose a design which was best *for me*. Other people may make different choices or disagree with mine, that's fine... 🙂 

Edited February 14, 2025 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

Bringing the BSS into the discussion is really pretty pointless as they have no authority to make a 'leisure / pleasure' boat comply.

 

As with other potential 'self harm' items it is just an advisory and you cannot fail - even if your only door is locked.

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, 5239 said:

my gunnels are below the bank on 90% of the places I moor so the side doors would never open fully in an emergency,

they do have a lid as you call it, on a hinge,

but I’m possibly too fat to escape through the lid,

but a sliding hatch would loose that ever so sought after space for solar panels 🤷‍♀️

That's not the reason for not having one though (because I did consider it) -- possible water ingress and draughts are... 😉 

 

I assume you noted that the front couple of feet of the roof don't have solar panels anyway, to give a grippy cross-walkway and for getting on and off the roof?

 

(oops, sorry -- cabin top...)

 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Bringing the BSS into the discussion is really pretty pointless as they have no authority to make a 'leisure / pleasure' boat comply.

 

As with other potential 'self harm' items it is just an advisory and you cannot fail - even if your only door is locked.

But they are advisory about safety, which you seem so concerned about -- are you suggesting they should be ignored?

 

You seem really hot on safety in every other possible area... 😉 

Edited February 14, 2025 by IanD

[David Mack]

37 minutes ago, IanD said:

 and the last thing I want in a bedroom is a potentially leaky draughty sliding hatch... 😉 

... that probably also attracts condensation...

[IanD]

Just now, David Mack said:

... that probably also attracts condensation...

...which then drips onto the bed... 😞