34 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

I've been following this thread with interest... realising I dont have any 'certificate' for our boat as such but do have a PDF 'declaration'....... does this count in the scheme of things

Yes, that is what you need to keep and hand on, along with the boat manual from the builder. The original is usually in the back of the manual (it has been on both RCD boats I have had).

45 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

I've been following this thread with interest... realising I dont have any 'certificate' for our boat as such but do have a PDF 'declaration'....... does this count in the scheme of things? 

Declaration - Water Lily.pdf 117.52 kB · 13 downloads

 

It is not in the format laid out by the RCD but it has all of the information needed - so - yes , that is what you would need, but unfortunately it is invalid as it has not been signed (it is currently just a pro-forma).

You either need to locate the original, signed document, which should be in the owners manual, or, get 'Eton mess' to sign it for you.

59 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

I've been following this thread with interest... realising I dont have any 'certificate' for our boat as such but do have a PDF 'declaration'....... does this count in the scheme of things?

 

Given it is unsigned, I'd suggest this doc is pretty meaningless.

 

Elton Moss still exist so if anyone quibbles about lack of signature should be  easy to get them to sign it.

There is a HIN number too which I would have thought would satisfy all but the most pedantic.

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Due to the ability for commercial NB builders to self certify, I'm sure there are dozens of NBs that have a certificate saying they comply, whether they actually do is another question, 

 

Dozens? Wow!

 

So in terms of the percentage of narrow boats on the system it could be as much as a very small fraction of 1%... 

 

Why do people waste their time worrying about this nonsense? Just enjoy your boats and carry on...

58 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It is not in the format laid out by the RCD but it has all of the information needed - so - yes , that is what you would need, but unfortunately it is invalid as it has not been signed (it is currently just a pro-forma).

You either need to locate the original, signed document, which should be in the owners manual, or, get 'Eton mess' to sign it for you.

 

48 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Given it is unsigned, I'd suggest this doc is pretty meaningless.

 

@robtheplod send it over and I will sign it for you, please enclose a SAE I don't mind using my own ink

17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You don't have a clue - do you !

But she’s got years and years of off shore boating experience and years of CCing the inland waterways, so you would of thought she’s learnt something in that time.🤔

Edited February 5, 20251 yr by BoatingLifeUpNorth2

2 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

Elton Moss still exist so if anyone quibbles about lack of signature should be  easy to get them to sign it.

There is a HIN number too which I would have thought would satisfy all but the most pedantic.

 

Excellent, so I can copy the whole document for my own boat including the HIN which should also satisfy all but the most pedantic. Yes? 

 

 

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

send it over and I will sign it for you, please enclose a SAE I don't mind using my own ink

 

Brilliant thanks! 

 

Now I have a complete and valid RCD!!

 

Ermmmmm, perhaps. But will it fool the broker? How would they know? 

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Excellent, so I can copy the whole document for my own boat including the HIN which should also satisfy all but the most pedantic. Yes? 

 

 

You could copy the document but I would suggest you change the name of the boat builder and amend the hin appropriately perhaps use a dead boatbuilder.

You do know this is fraud?

 

Just now, Phoenix_V said:

You could copy the document but I would suggest you change the name of the boat builder and amend the hin appropriately perhaps use a dead boatbuilder.

You do know this is fraud?

 

 

Od course I do. 

 

And I am not selling my boat, but the point I'm illustrating clearly escapes you. 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Od course I do. 

 

And I am not selling my boat, but the point I'm illustrating clearly escapes you. 

 

 

 

and mine escapes you, one has a genuine document but no signature would normally be accepted on face value but could be checked by the pedantic the other is fraud whether or not likely to be detected

Edited February 4, 20251 yr by Phoenix_V

12 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

Elton Moss still exist so if anyone quibbles about lack of signature should be  easy to get them to sign it.

There is a HIN number too which I would have thought would satisfy all but the most pedantic.

I have just contact Elton Moss and looks like they will sort for me which is nice......

9 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Excellent, so I can copy the whole document for my own boat including the HIN which should also satisfy all but the most pedantic. Yes? 

 

 

 

Brilliant thanks! 

 

Now I have a complete and valid RCD!!

 

Ermmmmm, perhaps. But will it fool the broker? How would they know? 

 

 

 

 

you're welcome! 

1 hour ago, robtheplod said:

I have just contact Elton Moss and looks like they will sort for me which is nice......

 

Good result - now keep it somewhere safe !

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Good result - now keep it somewhere safe !

Got the signed certificate back today - great service Elton Moss - stored safely!

On 04/02/2025 at 13:03, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Welcome to the forum. Where have you heard this? An official consultation, or towpath rumour?

Oh, sorry, I was thinking of HS2.

I'd say there is no chance whatever of RCR ever being dumped. UK politicians utterly thrive on imposing pettifogging bureaucracy on People Who Get Things Done.

 

I predict the RCR will only ever get more complex, troublesome and expensive to comply with, which is exactly what the bureaucratic empire-builders love doing. 

 

On 04/02/2025 at 19:44, Phoenix_V said:

Elton Moss still exist so if anyone quibbles about lack of signature should be  easy to get them to sign it.

There is a HIN number too which I would have thought would satisfy all but the most pedantic.

Not for much longer! Former employee there has left after their buyout of Bickerstaffe has gone tits up. No sales, boats sat rusting in water, wolves at the door! Two dealers have withdrawn his credit. Be careful if you have deposits or warranty with them!

15 minutes ago, Lister68 said:

Not for much longer! Former employee there has left after their buyout of Bickerstaffe has gone tits up. No sales, boats sat rusting in water, wolves at the door! Two dealers have withdrawn his credit. Be careful if you have deposits or warranty with them!

That's very sad to hear.

1 minute ago, MrsM said:

That's very sad to hear.

It really is, but a sign of hard times, I think. A former colleague of mine bought a bickerstaffe boat, after Elton Moss took over, and has had nothing but grief from Artie Chalmers. He won't even answer his phone when he calls. I feel sad for anyone losing their jobs. Even more so for those who might lose deposits or not get warranty work done

23 hours ago, MtB said:

I'd say there is no chance whatever of RCR ever being dumped. UK politicians utterly thrive on imposing pettifogging bureaucracy on People Who Get Things Done.

 

I predict the RCR will only ever get more complex, troublesome and expensive to comply with, which is exactly what the bureaucratic empire-builders love doing. 

 

Don't forget the RCR applies to many types of boat including salty water boats .

It does aim to bring all builders of pleasure craft up to at least a minimum safe standard. The RCR  effectively applies over the EU as many standards remain European wide . So you should be able to buy a boat made anywhere in the EU with some confidence that it has achieved a certain standard. 

 

if you don't believe in standards that's your choice . But I would have thought you work to standards in your professional life so why wouldn't you want standards to be applied to boats and to almost everything you buy?

 

On 04/02/2025 at 19:00, PeterF said:

Yes, that is what you need to keep and hand on, along with the boat manual from the builder. The original is usually in the back of the manual (it has been on both RCD boats I have had).

It's so sad to see people quick to part with their cash and then the gradual realisation that they've got nothing to protect them when things go wrong!

We have a similar scheme in the railway, although it’s primarily aimed at Interoperability for “placing into

use” and holding a Certificate from a Notified Body (called Approved Body in the U.K. since Brexit) does not demonstrate safety, there’s a separate process for that which we call CSM-RA.

 

I’ve worked as an Assessor for several Notified Bodies certifying new rail vehicles and can confirm it’s primarily box ticking, with only limited auditing/sampling of the build process.

 

I wouldn’t (and don’t) rely on a certificate of conformity from the manufacturer or their Notified Body because they don’t look at everything and the focus is on compliance with the Technical Standards for interoperability, not safety or

product quality.
 

I’ve also had some questionable decisions from Notified Bodies that has subsequently made me question their impartiality (remembering they are normally contracted and paid by the manufacturer).

40 minutes ago, Momac said:

if you don't believe in standards that's your choice . But I would have thought you work to standards in your professional life so why wouldn't you want standards to be applied to boats and to almost everything you buy?

 

 

Of course I believe in standards. Where did I say I don't? I just think there is considerable bureaucratic over-reach. At some point, you have to let people try to kill themselves with stupidity. As they say in the world of engineering if you try to build something idiot-proof, the universe will defeat you by building a better idiot. In my opinion you could write a set of standards that would make boats fundamentally safe in a dozen pages of A4.  

7 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Of course I believe in standards. Where did I say I don't? I just think there is considerable bureaucratic over-reach.

Okay so have we established its just the RCR you have a problem with and not any other standards?

I don't consider  the RCR to be  particularly complex.

I do think we all want to buy products that are fit for purpose and that is essentially all the RCR asks. 

 

10 hours ago, Momac said:

Okay so have we established its just the RCR you have a problem with and not any other standards?

I don't consider  the RCR to be  particularly complex.

I do think we all want to buy products that are fit for purpose and that is essentially all the RCR asks. 

 

Are you saying that boats built before RCR are not fit for purpose