buying a narrowboat that ISN'T RCR compliant - bad idea?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

The offence would be "putting the boat into use", which would be done by the first owner, and if the boat at that time did not comply with the RCD/RCR requirements (both technical and procedural) then an offence would have been committed, both by the supplier (not selling a compliant boat) and the first owner (putting a non compliant boat into use). But after that the boat is not being put into use - it is already in use - and further use is therefore not an offense, particularly if that user is someone other than the person who put the boat into use, such as a subsequent owner.

 

 

Slightly different rules for DIY builds on a sailaway hull ;

 

If fitting-out a boat from a professionally-built sailaway that can be used as a recreational craft (which is not based upon the stage of build, instead the ability to use the craft), then the boat has to conform to the Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR) when put into service, sold or transferred.

 

If it does not have a certificate of compliance from the builder from when it was put into use, then it must have a PCA before it can be sold or transferred.

 

[Beats88]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Slightly different rules for DIY builds on a sailaway hull ;

 

If fitting-out a boat from a professionally-built sailaway that can be used as a recreational craft (which is not based upon the stage of build, instead the ability to use the craft), then the boat has to conform to the Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR) when put into service, sold or transferred.

 

If it does not have a certificate of compliance from the builder from when it was put into use, then it must have a PCA before it can be sold or transferred.

 

 

Is this just first time sold, or all subsequent sales?

 

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If it does not have a certificate of compliance from the builder from when it was put into use, then it must have a PCA before it can be sold or transferred.

 

I would say this is demonstrably wrong.

 

I have succeeded on two occasions in buying a such a boat without the PCA you say is needed for such a purchase to take place. 

 

The really interesting thing is one of them, I didn't sell but supplied it in part-exchange for a bigger and better boat, along with a Tesco bag full of cash. How did that work then!! 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Beats88 said:

 

Is this just first time sold, or all subsequent sales?

 

 

The first time - after that it has a cerificate to say it is compliant - but no certificate then it requires a PCA.

 

 

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

I have succeeded on two occasions in buying a such a boat without the PCA you say is needed for such a purchase to take place. 

 

That is the difference between complying with the law, and (the seller) breaking the law.

 

 

[Beats88]

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The first time - after that it has a cerificate to say it is compliant - but no certificate then it requires a PCA.

 

 

 

That is the difference between complying with the law, and (the seller) breaking the law.

 

 

 

so in a nutshell, you believe the restrictions are only going to get tighter and more enforcement will happen on non-compliant boats, and it would be unwise to proceed with a purchase of a narrowboat that doesn't apply (no evidence either with plating or documentation)

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Beats88 said:

 

so in a nutshell, you believe the restrictions are only going to get tighter and more enforcement will happen on non-compliant boats, and it would be unwise to proceed with a purchase of a narrowboat that doesn't apply (no evidence either with plating or documentation)

 

It is your choice, some will say it doesn't matter if it is not legal , you won't get caught - but things have been tightening up over the last 2 or 3 years and I don't see them getting any less in the future.

 

I wouldn't unless I could see a way of getting it legal.

[GUMPY]

Take the boat off cart waters for a while, then bring it back on and register it anew as a boat built in 1996

Simple way out.

Edited February 3, 2025 by GUMPY
Date

[matty40s]

I wouldnt worry too much Beats88, it's a 25 year old boat from a fairly reputable shell builder who also fitted out at least 50 shells.

The early days of the RCD imposition are littered with boat builders who didn't quite get it right but made decent boats.

If it hasnt killed anybody yet then it is unlikely too now.

Any boat after 2017 which hasnt got the requisite paperwork and certs etc is a no go from most brokers, one of this age(so long as not owner fitout) would be sold by most, perhaps with the disclaimer such as Whilton now use.

[Phoenix_V]

6 hours ago, IanD said:

But being honest, how many boaters are ever going to spend such a huge sum just to do that?

 

Surely if they bought it without those documents (which is *not* illegal) then they'll assume they can sell it on without them?

 

Because if nothing else it's like any other alteration/refit cost, they'll never get enough extra back when selling to cover the costs... 😉 

 

Assuming the legal position doesn't change so it's illegal/impossible to sell without them, which also seems unlikely in the extreme.

Just making the point that 33% reduction is unlikely if you could put it all right for 6k and as you say even that is over the top.

[Unicorn Stampede]

I never saw any kind of plate for our 1995 boat when we got into the belly of it, and it certainly didn't come with any paper work from the broker about RCD/RCR. It floats though and hasn't blown up yet, so I'm not complaining.

 

We declared our second boat (2024 build) as a self build because it wasn't done to any RCD/RCR requirements. It was built from the original canal time hire boat plans though, so I imagine it's fine.

 

We've known 2 people sell their boats privately over last 2 years - admittedly they did it privately as it was all quite straightforward, but this RCR stuff was never brought in conversation by any of the buyers (and we certainly never had it raised when we were scouting out our first boat).

[MrsM]

The people that looked at our boat all asked about it when we sold privately. This might be unusual though.

[MtB]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If it does not have a certificate of compliance from the builder from when it was put into use, then it must have a PCA before it can be sold or transferred.

 

What does this certificate of compliance look like and how might a buyer check it is not a forgery?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

What does this certificate of compliance look like and how might a buyer check it is not a forgery?

 

 

 

I cannot post the Pdf as it appears to be too large for the forum, but, a screen shot that might enlarge enough to read ;

 

It has to be signed by one of the two authorising companies (notified bodies) and the examiners number givenso it can easily be checked for authenticity.

 

Page 1 of 5

 

Edited February 4, 2025 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I cannot post the Pdf as it appears to be too large for the forum, but, a screen shot that might enlarge enough to read ;

 

It has to be signed by one of the two authorising companies and the examiners number given

 

Page 1 of 5

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

But thats a PCA, not an initial Certificate of Compliance which could have been issued up to 27 years ago.

 

My concern is the type of boat seller inclined to offer a doctored survey report might also not be too concerned about issuing a Certificate of Compliance they made up in Photoshop.

 

How would a potential buyer go about verifying a supposed PDF scan of say, a dog-eared 25 year old original Certificate of Compliance? 

 

Edited February 4, 2025 by MtB
Delete a redundant word

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Thanks.

 

But thats a PCA, not an initial Certificate of Compliance which could have been issued up to 27 years ago.

 

My concern is the type of boat seller inclined to offer a doctored survey report might also not be too concerned about issuing a Certificate of Compliance they made up in Photoshop.

 

How would a potential buyer go about verifying a supposed PDF scan of say, a dog-eared 25 year old original Certificate of Compliance? 

 

 

Apologies, I thought you wanted to see a PCA.

 

Here is an original "Written Statement of Compliance (multilingual)

Again, signed by the authorised signatory of the 'Approved body' and his position (not the manufacturer)

 

Edited February 4, 2025 by Alan de Enfield

[Hudds Lad]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

What does this certificate of compliance look like and how might a buyer check it is not a forgery?

 

 

This is what i'm wondering. If British Marine is the governing body and holds no record, what would anyone check against? Especially if it's over ten years old so the builder has no record, or is no longer trading.

[MtB]

35 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

This is what i'm wondering. If British Marine is the governing body and holds no record, what would anyone check against? Especially if it's over ten years old so the builder has no record, or is no longer trading.

 

 

Exactly.

 

I'm just mocking one up for my boat now...

[Tonka]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Exactly.

 

I'm just mocking one up for my boat now...

are you then going to sell them to other people. Providing you weather them with cold tea. The owners then just stow them away. Problem sorted. You are now an entrepaneer

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Tonka said:

You are now an entrepaneer

 

Yes I've always liked Indian food.

 

 

 

[MrsM]

It's a very good point. Our certificate was at the end of the comprehensive, bound builder's manual for our boat. Our builder (Amber) had long since stopped trading. Who's to say the whole lot hadn't been fabricated? The fact that it was a comprehensive and factually detailed and accurate manual made it trustworthy, but ....

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, MrsM said:

It's a very good point. Our certificate was at the end of the comprehensive, bound builder's manual for our boat. Our builder (Amber) had long since stopped trading. Who's to say the whole lot hadn't been fabricated? The fact that it was a comprehensive and factually detailed and accurate manual made it trustworthy, but ....

But was the boat built to the standards quoted in the book? There is a thread on FB at the moment with someone with a new boat and are worried it wont pass its first BSS inspection when it due.

[MrsM]

As far as we could tell (hubby designs submarines so is pretty clued up on boaty things). It was also CE and HIN stamped on the hull but I guess one can never be 100% sure. 

[LadyG]

14 hours ago, Beats88 said:

 

so in a nutshell, you believe the restrictions are only going to get tighter and more enforcement will happen on non-compliant boats, and it would be unwise to proceed with a purchase of a narrowboat that doesn't apply (no evidence either with plating or documentation)

Opinions on here are varied.

Essentially forum members are not in a position to forecast the future of regulation.

In my opinion there will never be any backtracking on boats built twenty years ago, or ten years, or five years and so on.

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But was the boat built to the standards quoted in the book? There is a thread on FB at the moment with someone with a new boat and are worried it wont pass its first BSS inspection when it due.

Well, why did he buy a brand new boat without getting a BSC, how can it be insured and licenced assuming it is on CRT waters?

Anyway, one would think most boats can be Certified without undue expence.

Edited February 4, 2025 by LadyG

[Tonka]

24 minutes ago, MrsM said:

As far as we could tell (hubby designs submarines so is pretty clued up on boaty things). It was also CE and HIN stamped on the hull but I guess one can never be 100% sure. 

Submarines sink

Boats shouldn't sink 

[Alan de Enfield]

35 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Well, why did he buy a brand new boat without getting a BSC,

 

So now you are limiting boat buyers to those with a BSC ..............................

 

It is bad enough boats having to have a BSS, but dictating buyers educational requirements is going a bit far.