buying a narrowboat that ISN'T RCR compliant - bad idea?

[jim mitchell]

For a seconmd hand boat - over say two/three years old - is an RCR / RCD of relevance with regard to safety,  surely even if a boat was compliant on completetion it may no longer be - if an owner or someone has done work and altered  / replaced items / equipment was that also done to all the standards - for all its foibles maybe a very recent BSS is more relevant as to a boats condiition (safety wise) or value wise ?

[Momac]

1 minute ago, jim mitchell said:

 for all its foibles maybe a very recent BSS is more relevant as to a boats condiition (safety wise) or value wise ?

A fresh BSS certificate  is no guarantee at all that a boat is safe.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, jim mitchell said:

For a seconmd hand boat - over say two/three years old - is an RCR / RCD of relevance with regard to safety,  surely even if a boat was compliant on completetion it may no longer be - if an owner or someone has done work and altered  / replaced items / equipment was that also done to all the standards - for all its foibles maybe a very recent BSS is more relevant as to a boats condiition (safety wise) or value wise ?

If any work is done to the boat (gas, electric, new engine, anything to affect stability, safety etc etc) then it is the owners responsibiity to ensure the work is done in accordance with the requirements (exactly the same as the BSS requires) and the owners manual updated.

 

Me thinks you do not understand the difference  between the RCD and the BSS

 

I do not view a BSS as a 'safety certificate' in the same context as the RCD/RCR.

The RCD/RCR is regulations regarding the safety of the owner, the BSS is regarding the safety of other boat users, people walking the tow path etc.

 

Edited February 3, 2025 by Alan de Enfield

[LadyG]

12 minutes ago, Momac said:

A fresh BSS certificate  is no guarantee at all that a boat is safe.

 

No, but its better than one which is a month off expiry.

The Boat Safety Scheme has a rather irregular reputation.

 

[Momac]

6 minutes ago, jim mitchell said:

surely even if a boat was compliant on completetion it may no longer be -

This is possible but at least a boat  that was compliant when it was completed is  a good start . It is the complete disregard of the regulations which I find remarkable.

 

 

 

Are there really large numbers of narrowboats built  since 1998 that never had a RCD/RCR compliance ? If so would anyone care to guess how many?

 

 

[jim mitchell]

3 minutes ago, Momac said:

A fresh BSS certificate  is no guarantee at all that a boat is safe.

I agree with that, but  i was wondering seriously how much does a boat having originally been RCR / RCD compliant (paperwise) ensure that it is now and therefore which paperwork, if any, would do so.

 

On open waters especially such compliance relates to bouancy / stability etc etc and has a very direct impact on what may happen at sea,

And i agree about it being the owners responsibility regarding mods/ repairs

 

Maybe an ' upto date PCA'  would??   but otherwise (legalities not withstanding)  even a RCR is a bit like the MOT on vehicles it only shows its condition at some pont (usually historically) and proves  nought (or very little) about its current state.

[Tonka]

And is a boat with an RCD/RCR any safer then a boat say a month earlier which was built pre RCD/RCR

[GUMPY]

There are hundreds of boats out there built before 1997 are these less safe ?

 

 

 

[LadyG]

22 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

There are hundreds of boats out there built before 1997 are these less safe ?

 

 

 

Maybe they are the ones which sink?

Im not sure about boat safety, i thought the BSS is more relevant, anyway,  I thought the RCD was about  construction standards?

We, as in boaters, quickly realise that what counts is our boat and its current condition, not what papers it had 20 years ago.

Edited February 3, 2025 by LadyG

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

There are hundreds of boats out there built before 1997 are these less safe ?

 

How much of this is anything to do with safety, and how much to do with box-ticking/paperwork/two bald men arguing over a comb? 😉 

 

Boat with RCR/RCD : buy now for a bit more, sell later (anywhere) for a bit more

Boat without RCR/RCD : buy now for a bit less, sell later (not via some brokers) for a bit less

 

The only difference is a bit more money tied up in the boat, maybe a couple of grand.

 

Spending £6k+ and much time/effort to "bring up to standard" : don't bother, there's no chance you'll ever get the money back, and nobody cares. Except the bald men... 😉 

Edited February 3, 2025 by IanD

[Momac]

Does anyone reading this have a narrowboat with a CE plate and a HIN? I am beginning to wonder if there are any.

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Momac said:

Does anyone reading this have a narrowboat with a CE plate and a HIN? I am beginning to wonder if there are any.

 

Yes, since it's only 2 years old... 😉 

[Momac]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Yes, since it's only 2 years old... 😉 

Well that's one !

[MrsM]

8 minutes ago, Momac said:

Does anyone reading this have a narrowboat with a CE plate and a HIN? I am beginning to wonder if there are any.

 

 

 

 

Our 2008 boat did.

[Beats88]

Well thanks everyone, that cleared that up 😂  As someone pretty risk averse, the thought of buying a non-compliant boat that is priced accordingly, but I might not be able to sell in a few years time (worst case scenarios - all brokers refuse to sell non-compliant, CRT get involved and no licenses issued to non-compliant boats, insurers MUST have rcr proof etc) is quite scary as a newbie! I appreciate in practice logically there are probably two camps like someone else said here - the risk averse camp (who might end up making things worse by raising these types of issues with brokers etc!) and then the thrill seekers who just go with the flow and no doubt everything will be fine, boats will still be exchanging hands like they have been forever and all this headache would be for nothing. But i don't have a crystal ball, and I was hoping there'd be more responses saying ' yea nothing to worry about, crack on, no one is bothering with all this' 😂 

Would we even be able to use rcr to back out of a purchase because we were told before it's not compliant (should have looked into this more before making an offer - silly!) and not lose our deposit, as doubt owner will be willing to reduce further to potentially cover costs of a PCA for example?

 

[PeterF]

My 2002 built boat that I purchased in 2006 did, and it still had the owners manual and RCD certificate, which I passed on when sold in 2020 and the new build from 2021 does as well. When I sold the old boat the broker was quite happy when I produced the documents.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, jim mitchell said:

On open waters especially such compliance relates to bouancy / stability etc etc

 

Exactly as it does on canal boats - 12 people stood on one side and over it rolls, or ...............................

[Tonka]

30 minutes ago, Beats88 said:

Well thanks everyone, that cleared that up 😂  As someone pretty risk averse, the thought of buying a non-compliant boat that is priced accordingly, but I might not be able to sell in a few years time (worst case scenarios - all brokers refuse to sell non-compliant, CRT get involved and no licenses issued to non-compliant boats, insurers MUST have rcr proof etc) is quite scary as a newbie! I appreciate in practice logically there are probably two camps like someone else said here - the risk averse camp (who might end up making things worse by raising these types of issues with brokers etc!) and then the thrill seekers who just go with the flow and no doubt everything will be fine, boats will still be exchanging hands like they have been forever and all this headache would be for nothing. But i don't have a crystal ball, and I was hoping there'd be more responses saying ' yea nothing to worry about, crack on, no one is bothering with all this' 😂 

Would we even be able to use rcr to back out of a purchase because we were told before it's not compliant (should have looked into this more before making an offer - silly!) and not lose our deposit, as doubt owner will be willing to reduce further to potentially cover costs of a PCA for example?

 

what about all the boats that were built before the RCD/RCR mess came about. Are CRT really not going to issue a licence to them ?

[Peanut]

4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

what about all the boats that were built before the RCD/RCR mess came about. Are CRT really not going to issue a licence to them ?

The RCD/RCR doesn't apply to them.

[Tonka]

6 minutes ago, Peanut said:

The RCD/RCR doesn't apply to them.

yes i know. but the previous post hinted that boats without wouldnt get a licence.

Which in my opinion is utter nonsense

[tree monkey]

1 hour ago, GUMPY said:

There are hundreds of boats out there built before 1997 are these less safe ?

 

 

 

 

Do you not remember?,  The waterways press was full of the sinking and explosions, it was a massacre, in fact all those underwater obstructions boaters complain about are those slowly rusting hulls

[Beats88]

Yes Tonka makes a good point. I'm just 100% catastrophizing worse case scenarios in the event i buy this boat and then stricter rules comes into play in the future.....

[MtB]

1 hour ago, GUMPY said:

There are hundreds of boats out there built before 1997 are these less safe ?

 

 

Of course they are less safe. Just look at all the deaths and serious injuries caused by unsafe old narrowboats.

 

Errr.....

 

 

[Paul C]

4 minutes ago, Beats88 said:

Yes Tonka makes a good point. I'm just 100% catastrophizing worse case scenarios in the event i buy this boat and then stricter rules comes into play in the future.....

 

Effectively it already has - it used to be the case that sailaways got an Annex III (part complete) declaration, then the subsequent owner/DIY fitter out either completed the boat and did all the RCR admin too; or didn't sell it for 5 years. That interpretation of the rules was later deemed wrong, and RYA(?) gave up their role in administering the issuing of numbers for DIYers, someone else (BMA?) took over and clarified the situation to say all those boats aren't built right and in theory need a PCA. That's why there's so many >1997 boats without RCR.

 

In theory another, tighter, interpretation could occur officially too, but I don't think its likely.

 

I'd not worry too much, because you haven't bought a boat yet, you're aware of the situation.

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Momac said:

How can a boat that was not legally first used become legal simply because  it had changed ownership. 

The offence would be "putting the boat into use", which would be done by the first owner, and if the boat at that time did not comply with the RCD/RCR requirements (both technical and procedural) then an offence would have been committed, both by the supplier (not selling a compliant boat) and the first owner (putting a non compliant boat into use). But after that the boat is not being put into use - it is already in use - and further use is therefore not an offense, particularly if that user is someone other than the person who put the boat into use, such as a subsequent owner.

Edited February 3, 2025 by David Mack