Unbranded battery isolator switches

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Looks the same, in a picture, or in your hand, isn't the same as is the same. For example, differences in the thickness, or composition of the plating on the contacts, temper of the spring, glass transition temperature of the plastic and all sorts of other changes to reduce cost, or simply through ignorance of what's important, could lead to a dodgy product that looks identical to the eye.

There's the key -- quality is almost invisible, most people buy on price, cheaper junk = more sales + bigger profit margins.

 

The old saw "you get what you pay for" is just as applicable here as elsewhere... 😉 

[jonathanA]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

There's the key -- quality is almost invisible, most people buy on price, cheaper junk = more sales + bigger profit margins.

 

The old saw "you get what you pay for" is just as applicable here as elsewhere... 😉 

True but there is also the "marine" premium which pisses me off, especially with some of the premium brands. A while ago.i bought what I would call a mid market isolator from midland swindlers, it was own brand,  250A cont about 30 quid. Actually felt/looked OK, used to isolate a 2k inverter so should have been within its rating. Some time later I noticed it was getting warm and for unconnected (no pun) reasons was changing the inverter, replaced it with a dun-bri 600A job, think it was similar price maybe a touch more. Spoke to the technical guys at dun-bri who told me yes it was from China but they had tested them and wouldn't sell them unless they were comfortable with them. Big difference was 12mm studs and a definite "clunk" when operated.. oh and it doesn't get hot.... 

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

True but there is also the "marine" premium which pisses me off, especially with some of the premium brands. A while ago.i bought what I would call a mid market isolator from midland swindlers, it was own brand,  250A cont about 30 quid. Actually felt/looked OK, used to isolate a 2k inverter so should have been within its rating. Some time later I noticed it was getting warm and for unconnected (no pun) reasons was changing the inverter, replaced it with a dun-bri 600A job, think it was similar price maybe a touch more. Spoke to the technical guys at dun-bri who told me yes it was from China but they had tested them and wouldn't sell them unless they were comfortable with them. Big difference was 12mm studs and a definite "clunk" when operated.. oh and it doesn't get hot.... 

Yes the "marine premium" is a bummer -- but if there's a "non-marine" widget that does the same job, there's probably no reason not to use it on the inland waterways, it's not as if the boat is going to be on its beam ends ramming through 10m waves in a Force 9 gale off Cape Horn with salt water running everywhere inside the boat... 😉 

[jonathanA]

Totally agree I'm always looking for the non marine widget (at least cost) for any non life or death item/system.👍

[blackrose]

6 hours ago, IanD said:

What I'm saying is that there are cheap Chinese copies of almost *everything* electrical on the market, and many of them are dirt cheap because they're poor quality. OTOH some are presumably cheaper than "the real thing" (because they're made in China) and still decent quality. Almost all of them will not have genuine UL/CE markings because certification costs money (assuming they'd pass!), and wouldn't increase their sales to compensate because most buyers just buy on price.

 

The only *safe* option to avoid this lottery is to pay the premium (usually 2x - 3x the price!) for genuine UL/CE marked products from reputable makers -- but look carefully at online sellers, there are some which claim to be "the real thing" but aren't.

 

Buy the cheapest Chinese option and it may well be fine -- at least for a few years, especially at low loads -- or it may burst into flames. There's only one way to find out... 😉 

 

Yes all that's already been explained several times in this thread. But that wasn't the point I was making and the point that you're avoiding: If you first say that one can't tell just by looking at a product whether it's the same as another, then it follows that you can't claim a picture of a product looks identical to another, implying that it's the same. 

 

6 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Looks the same, in a picture, or in your hand, isn't the same as is the same. For example, differences in the thickness, or composition of the plating on the contacts, temper of the spring, glass transition temperature of the plastic and all sorts of other changes to reduce cost, or simply through ignorance of what's important, could lead to a dodgy product that looks identical to the eye.

 

Yes I understand that. I wasn't disagreeing with any of that in my post that you quoted. I was making a completely different point.

4 hours ago, jonathanA said:

True but there is also the "marine" premium which pisses me off, especially with some of the premium brands. A while ago.i bought what I would call a mid market isolator from midland swindlers, it was own brand,  250A cont about 30 quid. Actually felt/looked OK, used to isolate a 2k inverter so should have been within its rating. Some time later I noticed it was getting warm and for unconnected (no pun) reasons was changing the inverter, replaced it with a dun-bri 600A job, think it was similar price maybe a touch more. Spoke to the technical guys at dun-bri who told me yes it was from China but they had tested them and wouldn't sell them unless they were comfortable with them. Big difference was 12mm studs and a definite "clunk" when operated.. oh and it doesn't get hot.... 

 

Yes, just because you pay the marine premium doesn't necessarily mean you'll get a better product than something else made in China, although it may increase the possibility. Many high end marine products are made in China as well, just like everything else.

Edited September 1 by blackrose

[IanD]

13 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Yes all that's already been explained several times in this thread. But that wasn't the point I was making and the point that you're avoiding: If you first say that one can't tell just by looking at a product whether it's the same as another, then it follows that you can't claim a picture of a product looks identical to another, implying that it's the same. 

 

Yes I understand that. I wasn't disagreeing with any of that in my post that you quoted. I was making a completely different point.

 

Yes, just because you pay the marine premium doesn't necessarily mean you'll get a better product than something else made in China, although it may increase the possibility. Many high end marine products are made in China as well, just like everything else.

 

Almost everything electrical/electronic is made in China (or other Far East countries) because that's where all the components and materials and cheap labour are. They can make stuff that is high or low quality, the only difference is how much you're willing to pay -- high-quality gear (like telecomms/networking, the industry I'm in) enforces rigorous quality controls/standards/testing on both components and process and finished product, the end result is as good as anything you can get built in the West but still costs a considerably less even allowing for shipping and all the QA -- which is *not* cheap, and can mean having your own technicians/QA team embedded on their factories.

 

OTOH they can also make stuff that looks similar or identical without all those expensive checks and use cheaper lower-quality components and materials, at maybe half the price or less. Sometimes there's a giveaway with things like missing labels or standards marks or no-name brands (cheap copies), sometimes they look absolutely identical (counterfeits). Or they supply good quality kit at first which the importer is happy with (and may even test), then afterwards drop the quality (substitution) -- the only way to spot this is continuous QA testing of samples, which few importers will ever do (if they ever did in the first place).

 

All shippers/importers/brands put hefty markups on such products, but in the end the only way they can sell them cheaper is to buy them cheaper, which tends to mean cost-cutting in production and low quality -- and there's often a *big* gulf in price (and usually quality) between "the real thing" and cheap copies. If you look at high-current circuit breakers for example, there are the "cheap Ebay" (or Midland Chandlers?) ones at around £20-£30 (last time I looked) or the branded "real thing" at around £70, and not much in between. And there's always a tendency for a race to the bottom on price, there are multiple factories in China churning this stuff out and all competing to get orders by offering the lowest price -- which means cutting costs, which means lowering quality.

 

If you think the £20 one (or the perhaps better £30 one -- but then this could just be bigger distributor margins...) is a bargain which is just as good as the £70 one, then I have a bridge you might be interested in... 😉 

Edited September 2 by IanD

[Peanut]

In a past life, I worked for an electrical importer, I can tell you that what Ian says above is absolutely correct.

Worse yet, the same item, sold as no name white box, could cost 29.95, where as the same product with branding, which the importer paid for, might sell for 54.00, but with effective marketing.

Ronca Anchors, new to the market, were made with a strong grade of steel for the shank. The anchor became popular, and demand increased.

Soon it started to be reported that the shankes were bending in use.

It was found that the manufacturer in China has substituted a lower grade of steel for the shank.

I suspect the importer asked for a lower price due to the higher volume being ordered, which would be quite normal. And they obliged, by providing a product for the price, but with a cheaper steel.

Edited September 2 by Peanut
spelling

[Tacet]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Almost everything electrical/electronic is made in China (or other Far East countries) because that's where all the components and materials and cheap labour are. They can make stuff that is high or low quality, the only difference is how much you're willing to pay -- high-quality gear (like telecomms/networking, the industry I'm in) enforces rigorous quality controls/standards/testing on both components and process and finished product, the end result is as good as anything you can get built in the West but still costs a considerably less even allowing for shipping and all the QA -- which is *not* cheap, and can mean having your own technicians/QA team embedded on their factories.

 

OTOH they can also make stuff that looks similar or identical without all those expensive checks and use cheaper lower-quality components and materials, at maybe half the price or less. Sometimes there's a giveaway with things like missing labels or standards marks or no-name brands (cheap copies), sometimes they look absolutely identical (counterfeits). Or they supply good quality kit at first which the importer is happy with (and may even test), then afterwards drop the quality (substitution) -- the only way to spot this is continuous QA testing of samples, which few importers will ever do (if they ever did in the first place).

 

All shippers/importers/brands put hefty markups on such products, but in the end the only way they can sell them cheaper is to buy them cheaper, which tends to mean cost-cutting in production and low quality -- and there's often a *big* gulf in price (and usually quality) between "the real thing" and cheap copies. If you look at high-current circuit breakers for example, there are the "cheap Ebay" (or Midland Chandlers?) ones at around £20-£30 (last time I looked) or the branded "real thing" at around £70, and not much in between. And there's always a tendency for a race to the bottom on price, there are multiple factories in China churning this stuff out and all competing to get orders by offering the lowest price -- which means cutting costs, which means lowering quality.

 

If you think the £20 one (or the perhaps better £30 one -- but then this could just be bigger distributor margins...) is a bargain which is just as good as the £70 one, then I have a bridge you might be interested in... 😉 

And if you think just because you pay £70 it means it  cannot possibly be a £30 one with a higher price, then you had best keep your bridge.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Peanut said:

In a past life, I worked for an electrical importer, I can tell you that what Ian says above is absolutely correct.

Worse yet, the same item, sold as no name white box, could cost 29.95, where as the same product with branding, which the importer paid for, might sell for 54.00, but with effective marketing.

Ronca Anchors, new to the market, were made with a strong grade of steel for the shank. The anchor became popular, and demand increased.

Soon it started to be reported that the shankes were bending in use.

It was found that the manufacturer in China has substituted a lower grade of steel for the shank.

I suspect the importer asked for a lower price due to the higher volume being ordered, which would be quite normal. And they obliged, by providing a product for the price, but with a cheaper steel.

 

I have a customer who has loads of stuff made in China for his company. He tells me they are horrors for quoting cheap to get your order then reducing the agreed spec so they can wring a profit from the shipment. All done without telling you while they watch to see if you notice. And if you don't, they'll keep nibbling away at the spec until you do notice and then lose their respect for you, for not noticing sooner. In China ,morally or ethically, nothing is seen as wrong with this and its perfectly normal business practise unlike here, he tell me. I wonder if this has been happening with the anchors. 

 

 

[jonathanA]

And in a few years when the only people able to make anything are in China we will have no control over quality or price....

 

A few years ago the company I worked for, a UK multinational was buying equipment  from a well known Chinese manufacturer. Needless to we were operating a tender process. A UK employee told me his Chinese superiors couldn't understand why they couldn't just provide some "cash incentives" to get a favourable decision.  Once the bribery laws were explained their response was just find out what the decision makers hobbies are and give them a large gifts....

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

And if you think just because you pay £70 it means it  cannot possibly be a £30 one with a higher price, then you had best keep your bridge.

That's not what I said either -- you can always pay more by being ripped off. Caveat emptor... 🙂 

But for sure, a £20-£30 one won't be an equivalent high-quality expensive-to-make one at a third the price... 😉 

Edited September 2 by IanD

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

That's not what I said either -- you can always pay more by being ripped off. Caveat emptor... 🙂 

But for sure, a £20-£30 one won't be an equivalent high-quality expensive-to-make one at a third the price... 😉 

 

What you said was this:

6 hours ago, IanD said:

 

 

If you think the £20 one (or the perhaps better £30 one -- but then this could just be bigger distributor margins...) is a bargain which is just as good as the £70 one, then I have a bridge you might be interested in... 😉 

 

The point being that the £30 one could be just as good as the £70  - if the latter is just a rip off.

 

It may be more probable that the more expensive item is better than the cheaper version or, put another way, the cheaper one is of dubious quality if is to cheap, but one is equally gullible to believe that more expensive is universally better.

 

 

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

 

What you said was this:

 

The point being that the £30 one could be just as good as the £70  - if the latter is just a rip off.

 

It may be more probable that the more expensive item is better than the cheaper version or, put another way, the cheaper one is of dubious quality if is to cheap, but one is equally gullible to believe that more expensive is universally better.

 

 

<sigh> selective misquoting again -- I was referring to "the branded "real thing" at around £70" (see my previous paragraph), meaning from a reputable supplier with UL/CE marking. 

 

You're right, only the gullible would believe that expensive is universally better -- which is why I was careful not to say that... 🙂 

 

You can get cheap crap, and expensive crap, and expensive good stuff -- what you rarely get is cheap good stuff... 😞 

Edited September 2 by IanD

[Peanut]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I wonder if this has been happening with the anchors. 

 

I think they asked for a lower price and the Chinese obliged. I believe they found a new supplier, they are all good now.

[Tacet]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

<sigh> selective misquoting again -- I was referring to "the branded "real thing" at around £70" (see previous paragraph), meaning from a reputable supplier with UL/CE marking. 

 

You're right, only the gullible would believe that expensive is universally better -- which is why I was careful not to say that... 🙂 

Sigh... You may have been selectively quoted but you weren't misquoted

[IanD]

Just now, Tacet said:

Sigh... You may have been selectively quoted but you weren't misquoted

There's a difference? What you did was selective/misquoting to try and make it look like I said something I didn't -- which was this...

 

"...and there's often a *big* gulf in price (and usually quality) between "the real thing" and cheap copies. If you look at high-current circuit breakers for example, there are the "cheap Ebay" (or Midland Chandlers?) ones at around £20-£30 (last time I looked) or the branded "real thing" at around £70, and not much in between. And there's always a tendency for a race to the bottom on price, there are multiple factories in China churning this stuff out and all competing to get orders by offering the lowest price -- which means cutting costs, which means lowering quality. If you think the £20 one (or the perhaps better £30 one -- but then this could just be bigger distributor margins...) is a bargain which is just as good as the £70 one, then I have a bridge you might be interested in..."

[GUMPY]

Does the £70 one have 3 times the lifespan of the £30 one?

If not then............

[MtB]

8 hours ago, IanD said:

I have a bridge you might be interested in... 😉

 

Cobblers.  I don't believe you own a bridge! 

 

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Cobblers.  I don't believe you own a bridge! 

 

Actually I do, it's across our garden pond. Make me an offer... 😉

[MtB]

14 hours ago, IanD said:

Actually I do, it's across our garden pond. Make me an offer... 😉

 

1p

 

When can I call round and collect it?! 

 

 

Edited September 3 by MtB

[IanD]

47 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Does the £70 one have 3 times the lifespan of the £30 one?

If not then............

That depends on whether the £30 one bursts into flames or not... 😉

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

1p

Nah, must be worth at least £300k... 🙂

[jonathanA]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

That depends on whether the £30 one bursts into flames or not... 😉

3 hours ago, MtB said:

In my experience they never burst into flames they either go HR or open circuit - safe but annoying  or the melting plastic means they no longer function ..  also most likely safe and most definitely annoying....as it always happens on a bank holiday when you are in the middle of no where....

[IanD]

11 hours ago, jonathanA said:

In my experience they never burst into flames they either go HR or open circuit - safe but annoying  or the melting plastic means they no longer function ..  also most likely safe and most definitely annoying....as it always happens on a bank holiday when you are in the middle of no where....

I was employing a certain amount of humorous hyperbole, like many posters do to make their point... 🙂 

Edited September 3 by IanD

[Iain_S]

16 hours ago, jonathanA said:

In my experience they never burst into flames they either go HR or open circuit - safe but annoying  or the melting plastic means they no longer function ..  also most likely safe and most definitely annoying....as it always happens on a bank holiday when you are in the middle of no where....

Not necessarily safe. I had one (the common removeable red key type) where the plastic melted and the bolt and contact fell out of the back, which could easily have shorted to the hull.

[jonathanA]

3 hours ago, Iain_S said:

Not necessarily safe. I had one (the common removeable red key type) where the plastic melted and the bolt and contact fell out of the back, which could easily have shorted to the hull.

Only if your cables weren't properly supported, but take your point hopefully the lack of 12v and smell would have alerted you before anything else happened..