Review my fitout plan - Electrics Cabinet

[IanD]

8 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

As much as I can.

 

There is also value in working up a plan because if were to point at one blank corner of the boat and ask a pro electrician to "work it all out" I would have to pay for the think time and if I added "and oh its a serial hybrid" that would add another £1k to the planning cost.

 

As to getting visiting pro's on board I think the trick to a successful fitout is to select a boatyard with pro's onsite. 

 

Just be aware that if you provide/suggest plans and request use of any new/unfamiliar components, it'll be your problem if any unforeseen issues arise, and you'll have to bear the cost of any extra work required to sort them out. And if it all doesn't fit in the space available or is so crammed in it's really difficult to work on, it'll *all* be your fault... 😉 

 

I could quote several examples from my build -- for example rather than using a standard Surecal calorifier which has relatively small heating coils (~1kW, slow to heat up) and thin insulation (cools down quickly) I asked for one to be custom-made with higher capacity coils (~5kW) and double-thickness insulation. I knew this was going to cost more (different supplier, custom build, more copper) but decided it was worth it.

 

When it turned up it was a bare unit without the standard Surecal fittings (e.g. thermostatic mixer valve) which had to be sourced and fitted (extra cost), and no mounting cradle. So we got the manufacturer to supply one (more cost), but it was literally just a cradle with no straps or fixings to hold the cylinder in place, which then had to be made up (more cost). Then there was the hours of work needed to do all this unexpected extra work (more cost).

 

The end result was what I wanted -- much faster to heat up (shorter generator/boiler running time) and holds temperature for a lot longer -- but probably ended up costing double what I originally expected, plus a fair bit of time and hassle for the guy doing the work which delayed things. That's the risk -- which as an engineer I'm aware of, and accepted -- of doing anything new and different that the builder hasn't done -- or has done differently -- before.

 

If you're planning the entire install yourself especially never having actually done one before, the risk of things like this happening are much higher than if you tell the (experienced) boatbuilder what you want and let them sort it out -- which is pretty much what I did (successfully!) with the electrics/propulsion installation... 😉 

Edited January 7, 2025 by IanD

[PeterF]

22 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

If the buzzer state could trigger an event in the online VRM Victron shadow of my electrics I wonder if a VRM event could send a warning txt to my mobile in case I am chatting to neighbours down the towpath out of earshot of the audio alarm.

On VRM you choose the device and reading you want the alarm on, battery SOC, battery voltage, cabinet temperature, inverter state, etc.etc. (not everything is available) , all temperatures are available and make up alarms as required. If an alarm occurs you can decide to be emailed or they can also generate alerts on your phone if you have the VictronConnect app installed on your phone and linked to your VRM installation. I do not think that texts is an option but with VictronConnect running you do not need texts.

[IanD]

16 hours ago, PeterF said:

On VRM you choose the device and reading you want the alarm on, battery SOC, battery voltage, cabinet temperature, inverter state, etc.etc. (not everything is available) , all temperatures are available and make up alarms as required. If an alarm occurs you can decide to be emailed or they can also generate alerts on your phone if you have the VictronConnect app installed on your phone and linked to your VRM installation. I do not think that texts is an option but with VictronConnect running you do not need texts.

Still ignoring the fact that temperature sensing won't work for this case*** due to false positives and/or failure to detect a problem. A networked-in smoke detector would work though... 😉 

 

*** cabinet temperatures on my boat have varied from <0C to >40C, temperature difference between this and outside has varied from 0C to >20C, because normal heat dissipation can vary from a few watts to >500W. It's impossible to use temperature to reliably detect an electrical fire given this and the small amount of flammable material in the cabinet.

[PeterF]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Still ignoring the fact that temperature sensing won't work for this case*** due to false positives and/or failure to detect a problem. A networked-in smoke detector would work though... 😉 

 

*** cabinet temperatures on my boat have varied from <0C to >40C, temperature difference between this and outside has varied from 0C to >20C, because normal heat dissipation can vary from a few watts to >500W. It's impossible to use temperature to reliably detect an electrical fire given this and the small amount of flammable material in the cabinet.

Twice now I have answered a question posed by the OP that has nothing to do with fire detection, twice you have said it will not work, he either wanted a temperature to run a fan or a temperature to sound an alarm. For these questions this will work. Some of the topic may have gotten onto fire detection, but that does not stop me from answering questions from before that.

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, PeterF said:

Twice now I have answered a question posed by the OP that has nothing to do with fire detection, twice you have said it will not work, he either wanted a temperature to run a fan or a temperature to sound an alarm. For these questions this will work. Some of the topic may have gotten onto fire detection, but that does not stop me from answering questions from before that.

Sorry, it wasn't clear what you were referring to. As you say it's dead easy to use temperature sensors (hardwired or RuuviTag, I've got both) to measure temperature, it's what I do. Sounding an alarm will alert you to possible cabinet overheating but won't reliably detect an electrical fire.

 

If all you want is electric cabinet cooling fans there's a much easier way, use the Victron fan assistant on the combi via one of the inbuilt relays to turn external cooling fans on at the same point the ones inside the combi come on, all you need is a fan and a wire. Does a much better job of controlling the combi temperature, fans are turned on when the combi decides they're needed because it's getting warm.

[cuthound]

8 hours ago, IanD said:

Still ignoring the fact that temperature sensing won't work for this case*** due to false positives and/or failure to detect a problem. A networked-in smoke detector would work though... 😉 

 

*** cabinet temperatures on my boat have varied from <0C to >40C, temperature difference between this and outside has varied from 0C to >20C, because normal heat dissipation can vary from a few watts to >500W. It's impossible to use temperature to reliably detect an electrical fire given this and the small amount of flammable material in the cabinet.

 

When I used to design fire detection for data centres, I would  use a combination of optical and ionising smoke detectors and placed flame detectors at the points most likely to combust. However this is not a cheap option cost £000's.

 

All of the above would be linked into a water mist fire extinguishing system.

[ditchcrawler]

28 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

When I used to design fire detection for data centres, I would  use a combination of optical and ionising smoke detectors and placed flame detectors at the points most likely to combust. However this is not a cheap option cost £000's.

 

All of the above would be linked into a water mist fire extinguishing system.

The number of times I was out of bed at dawn due to optical fire detection picking up the rising sun being modulated by and almost flat calm sea. so mainly a problem mid summer when dawn is earliest.  

[cuthound]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

The number of times I was out of bed at dawn due to optical fire detection picking up the rising sun being modulated by and almost flat calm sea. so mainly a problem mid summer when dawn is earliest.  

 

By using both optical and ionising smoke detectors and not initiating an alarm until one of each type has alarmed eliminates false alarms from either type.

 

That said very few data centres have external windows so the rising sun was never an issue.

[ditchcrawler]

29 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

By using both optical and ionising smoke detectors and not initiating an alarm until one of each type has alarmed eliminates false alarms from either type.

 

That said very few data centres have external windows so the rising sun was never an issue.

Or grating floor over the sea. 😇

[Gybe Ho]

On 06/01/2025 at 14:50, IanD said:

 

I'm sure there are many more things that could go wrong on board which are much more likely and have much worse (and more expensive) consequences, but for which nobody would suggest any kind of expensive/complex automatic alarm/detection system -- I can immediately think of half a dozen... 😉 

 

 

Yes Swmbo + lit gas hob and a tea towel absentmindedly dropped on worktop is one that springs to mind.

On 06/01/2025 at 18:04, PeterF said:

You can fit a temperature sensor to one of the Cerbo temperature inputs and a piezo buzzer to the Relay 2 output (it should be below the small allowable current rating of the relay) and program Relay 2 to work on temperature from that sensor.

 

 

I found one such piezo buzzer, it was rated at 103 decibels! That is dangerous to human hearing and might make it too painful to approach the electrics cabinet to investigate the heat source.

On 07/01/2025 at 10:01, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

What shell builder and engine supplier are you using?

 

Talking to a couple and have a quote off one for my extras. In terms of build slot availability, industry supply & demand has swung sharply in my favour.

On 08/01/2025 at 10:48, PeterF said:

Twice now I have answered a question posed by the OP that has nothing to do with fire detection, twice you have said it will not work, he either wanted a temperature to run a fan or a temperature to sound an alarm. For these questions this will work. Some of the topic may have gotten onto fire detection, but that does not stop me from answering questions from before that.

 

Your input is much appreciated. With a Cerbo and Multiplus already in the budget, it will not cost much to enable the capabilities already present in the Victron kit as you described. I suspect that hot electrical cabinets will become more of a thing as higher powered gear is shoehorned into typical corner electrical cabinet on a narrowboat. My intention is to design in a solution for this problem from the start rather than deal with it once the problem becomes evident. The RV / Motorhome community is ahead of we narrowboaters on this matter because they design for smaller spaces.

 

One tip I got from @IanD was the presence of an external fan connector on the Quattro and presumably the Multiplus. This sounds useful because the first sign of overheating will be the Multiplus increasing the internal fan speed and signaling the external fan connector.

 

All this stuff costs a few extra pennys to enable, if only I could find the hood style fan as shown in the RV fitout video I linked to a week ago in this thread.

On 07/01/2025 at 18:18, PeterF said:

On VRM you choose the device and reading you want the alarm on, battery SOC, battery voltage, cabinet temperature, inverter state, etc.etc. (not everything is available) , all temperatures are available and make up alarms as required. If an alarm occurs you can decide to be emailed or they can also generate alerts on your phone if you have the VictronConnect app installed on your phone and linked to your VRM installation. I do not think that texts is an option but with VictronConnect running you do not need texts.

 

Excellent, if I am reading this correctly then once setup, if I am chatting with towpath neighbours 300m away from my boat when my electrics cabinet overheats then within a minute my mobile phone will generate an alert via the digital twin of my electrics cabinet hosted on Victron's internet servers and all this comes free of charge.

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

10 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Talking to a couple and have a quote off one for my extras. In terms of build slot availability, industry supply & demand has swung sharply in my favour

Who are they? As you’ve asked as to what people think of your plans and recommendations/advice on your fitout, so in naming your shell builder, people will be able to give you advice on their shells. As a shell is far more important than a 12v computer fan brand recommendation. 

Edited January 13, 2025 by BoatingLifeUpNorth2

[Gybe Ho]

Left forum 

Edited January 14, 2025 by Gybe Ho

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I don't feel comfortable discussing this on a public forum however I could start another thread about the finer points & features when specifying a custom shell.

 

So you are having a custom designed shell built, as well as custom designed fit-out.

 

You must be very confident in both your knowledge of what is needed, and designing the systems correctly

[Gybe Ho]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So you are having a custom designed shell built, as well as custom designed fit-out.

 

You must be very confident in both your knowledge of what is needed, and designing the systems correctly

 

Custom is a relative word in narrowboat building, in practice most customers just tweak the builder's standard way of doing things.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Custom is a relative word in narrowboat building, in practice most customers just tweak the builder's standard way of doing things.

 

So you are not having a 'customised hull', you are simply suggesting where the windows go, and what colour paint you want.

[Gybe Ho]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So you are not having a 'customised hull', you are simply suggesting where the windows go, and what colour paint you want.

 

I am not rising to your all too typical provocations, you will arrive at the most extreme and ridiculous interpretation of whatever I type. 

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I don't feel comfortable discussing this on a public forum however I could start another thread about the finer points & features when specifying a custom shell.

What do you call a custom shell?

 As @Alan de Enfield they are not a custom shell when they’re their basic shells and you just tell them the window placement to suit your internal layout.

 Bespoke/customer add ons, are things like bow cabin, pigeon boxes/skylights, multiple side hatches, recessed panels, rivet package, extra wide entrance hatches, extra rubbing strakes.

 All of these things can add on £1000’s to your shell, then you have painting to add, even more to the cost. With all these ideas that your bouncing around on here and has been mentioned before your budget will be gone in no time.

 I don’t see the problem with mentioning the shell builders you’re considering if they are respected builders then they will be ok, if basic very low end then ok, you buy what suits your budgets. 

Edited January 13, 2025 by BoatingLifeUpNorth2

[Paul C]

1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I don't feel comfortable discussing this on a public forum however I could start another thread about the finer points & features when specifying a custom shell.

I don't blame you.

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

25 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I don't blame you.

There’s not really any issue all he has to say is I’m thinking about these shell builder, anyone got recent experience with their shell builds:

A: Boaty shells.

B. Canal Boaty shells Ltd.

C. Boaty Canal Sheel R.U’s.

 

Then take in people experience who’ve had shells built in the last 1-2 years. There’s nothing personal or top secret with it, is there?

[Gybe Ho]

Left forum

Edited January 14, 2025 by Gybe Ho

[ditchcrawler]

20 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Any shell ordered by a customer before the fabrication starts and where the customer says "can you do X".

 

There will be 100s tweaks possible, whether they constitute a custom shell, a bespoke shell or standard options is really only of interest to people looking to argue semantics on the internet.

 

I am not sure why you raised the matter of painting because the shell manufacturers all offer a standard two coats of epoxy primer inclusive default deal. 

 

 

I am writing a hull specification post for the forum and I will upload this as a new fitout thread. You can then tell me everything I have got wrong or overlooked as I suspect this is your specialist narrowboating subject.

 

 

I doubt there are more than 50 people shopping for a custom narrowboat shell right now UK-side. Here is my guess of the market break down.

 

400 narrowboat builds commenced annually.

 

75% will be delivered as turn-key finished boats.

 

Of the remaining 25%, half will be sold as finished stock shells available for immediate purchase & delivery

 

That leaves possibly 48 people who talk with shell fabricators prior to placing an order.

In that case the market has changed as I didn't know of any good shell builder that had shells sitting as stock shells for immediate delivery. 

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

38 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

Any shell ordered by a customer before the fabrication starts and where the customer says "can you do X".

 

 But it all depends on how much you want “can you do X” if you have a massive list of “can you do’s” they will hike the price up quite a bit, then it becomes more bespoke. With a stock shell you don’t get a lot of options for the basic price.

 

39 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

I am not sure why you raised the matter of painting because the shell manufacturers all offer a standard two coats of epoxy primer inclusive default deal. 

 Yes, so your getting your shell in grey undercoat and you’ll gloss it up yourself at the side of the tow path, that’s cleared up then.

40 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

I am writing a hull specification post for the forum and I will upload this as a new fitout thread. You can then tell me everything I have got wrong or overlooked as I suspect this is your specialist narrowboating subject.

 No point, you need to discuss it with your shell builder, as you say you have and are waiting for his price. The shell builder you’ve picked would have told you already what he can and will do for your budget. So who have you gone for?

 

51 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

I doubt there are more than 50 people shopping for a custom narrowboat shell right now UK-side. Here is my guess of the market break down.

 

400 narrowboat builds commenced annually.

 

75% will be delivered as turn-key finished boats.

 

Of the remaining 25%, half will be sold as finished stock shells available for immediate purchase & delivery

 

That leaves possibly 48 people who talk with shell fabricators prior to placing an order.

 A lot of people talking to builders, what you forget people can order their boats a few years in advance, decent shell builders can have orders for a couple of years. Then again if they want they can knock out a basic stock shell in a couple of weeks if they need quick cash.

 Most new buyers won’t come on here and put all their plans down for scrutiny like what you seem to be doing. They go and talk direct to the boat builder/shell builder and don’t waste their time on here just talking about it, they just do it.

 

39 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

In that case the market has changed as I didn't know of any good shell builder that had shells sitting as stock shells for immediate delivery. 

I doubt the decent ones have. The ones I’ve seen seem to have a steady flow of bespoke shells often 2-3 on the go at various stages of completion at a time.

 As @Gybe Ho seems reluctant to name a builder he has engaged with, maybe they’re the lower end of the price range. I don’t know why all the secrecy🤔

[Graham Davis]

As far as I can see GH is proving once more that he knows very little about canal boat builders, or even canal boats in general.
 

21 minutes ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

 I don’t know why all the secrecy🤔

Because there is no boat builder?
 

[Paul C]

A good approach would be to go ahead and canvas the shell builders, progress all the discussions etc, in private. But then report back with a time lag (of say, a few weeks or months) of the build progress on here. It would have advantages and disadvantages:

 

Disadvantages

1. You will lose the possible insight of others more experienced and wiser.

 

Advantages

2. Greatly cuts down the amount of drivel you'll have to wade through on the forum. In fact, it could virtually eliminate discussion and it just be yourself posting into an otherwise empty thread (this sometimes happens with build threads on other forums, eg engine conversions where the audience is less skilled and the poster is pretty much the most knowledgeable on the forum). 

3. Long term, its a better reference for others in later months or years - because of less side-discussion which is more than likely irrelevant

 

Of course its a disadvantage to the audience, because this forum is "infotainment" with each thread one or other end of that spectrum, depending on how it goes.

 

Given how the other threads have historically progressed, I would encourage you do think through if you need the forum's insight and how it might end up if you missed it. And an alternate - for example talking to shell builders directly, paying them visits, engaging with other boaters more directly rather than online.

 

Heck, you could even do a Youtube on the build - its the modern way, after all. I suspect it would not prove massively popular and not achieve decent monetisation though, what with the somewhat limited audience. Its not like you're as attractive as "Betty on a Boat" for example (I'm going to guess..)

[Gybe Ho]

8 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Of course its a disadvantage to the audience, because this forum is "infotainment" with each thread one or other end of that spectrum, depending on how it goes.

 

 

You are right about "infotainment", I think the forum is mostly about providing a therapeutic outlet for the regulars.

 

I have picked up far less value from the Review My Fitout threads than I expected, this one was the most valuable where I picked up many ideas for busbar options and I discovered the programmability of the whole Victron ecosystem is more accessible than I thought. The lighting fitout thread caused me to reduce the number of ovehead spots in favour of more subtle lighting, I was leaning in that direction and the opinions helped validate my thoughts.

 

I will try one more fitout thread on shell specifications as most forum members should be able contribute unlike a modern electrics cabinet that is likely two generations ahead of what is installed on a typical 20 year old narrowboat.