Review my fitout plan - Electrics Cabinet

[Gybe Ho]

3 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

Wouldn’t really want to get rid of anyone to be honest. There’s little enough traffic on here as it is so anyone with something new to discuss is always welcome by me, and I can’t see what the forum gains by people just making snide comments

 

 

The forum character has changed for the worse in the past 3 years. My Google fitout research often leads to excellent fitout related threads here dating back to 2008 and 2018, for example the hilarious Jonny London 5-month Wesbasto install thread.

 

Subtract away the pure politics, CRT bashing and cyclical RCD debates and there is not much left here these days in the fitout domain.  

[Russ T]

Just now, Gybe Ho said:

 

The forum character has changed for the worse in the past 3 years. My Google fitout research often leads to excellent fitout related threads here dating back to 2008 and 2018, for example the hilarious Jonny London 5-month Wesbasto install thread.

 

Subtract away the pure politics, CRT bashing and cyclical RCD debates and there is not much left here these days in the fitout domain.  

Yet, you still remain,and continue to post, as does your friend .

[Gybe Ho]

22 minutes ago, Rod Stewart said:

Yet, you still remain,and continue to post, as does your friend .

 

Yes despite the targeted antagonisms from the usual accounts I still got value within 12 hours e.g. @PeterF spotting the gross fuse location error and @Tony Brooks suggesting copper bar to work around a high current tight radius.

 

The next 100 prospective fitout project planners will find this thread via Goggle in future years and I hope it will advance their planning. It took me a few months to work out which boxes in the Victron product did what and how these were connected. Six months ago I spent a few days puzzling over what the Lynx Distributer did, it had lights and a data wire and seemed very hi-tech under its designer blue plastic cover then I realized it was just a pair of stretched out battery terminals.

 

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”

Edited January 5, 2025 by Gybe Ho

[truckcab79]

20 minutes ago, Rod Stewart said:

Yet, you still remain,and continue to post, as does your friend .

As do you. Free country and all that. 👍

 

Imagine if the only posters were a handful of old men who don’t own boats. 😱. Not much of a ‘forum’ to be honest.  We’ll keep trying and appreciate your support though. 🙏. 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

there is not much left here these days in the fitout domain

 

Had you considered that self-fitouts may be on the decline, and the advent of the cash rich retiree, early retirement, made redundant, inheritance may allow people to buy a finished boat without having to do any work ?

Whilst the odd (I use the term loosely) people like Ian D have the knowledge and skills to design what he wants others may just give the builder an outline and let them get on with it.

[Gybe Ho]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Had you considered that self-fitouts may be on the decline, and the advent of the cash rich retiree, early retirement, made redundant, inheritance may allow people to buy a finished boat without having to do any work ?

 

 

It is an economic/social trend, the great pestilence triggered many to review their life plans and there is a wealth bubble working its demographic way through the system. In addition there are plenty of fitouts underway. Walking around Debdale the other day I counted around 20 fitout projects. There are always shells and sailaways up in the North/West for sale. I follow 5 fitouts posting weekly on YouTube. Plus there is a large contingent of old boats being rebuilt following a strip out.

 

Rather than fancy economic theories, the forum old timers need to look at themselves for an explanation as to why the forum is becoming marginalized.

Edited January 5, 2025 by Gybe Ho

[truckcab79]

There’s always been a wealthier group in any hobby that prefer to circumvent the graft for the end result. It’s not ‘wrong’ as such, just different.  Probably the most obvious example in my knowledge being the American and to a lesser extent UK rod and custom scene. Once kids buying cheap old cars and doing them up. Now a tiny number still doing that and a whole crowd of forever disappearing old men commissioning multi-million dollar bespoke creations. Far removed from the original hobby but you can’t just stand still crying that stuff has changed. Just enjoy both for what they are.  
 

As GybeHo says, if you want to look further afield than this forum and its almost non-existent hands-on project section then they’re out there. Loads of people doing good stuff on YouTube. Doesn’t even have to be narrowboats.  I probably watch far more sailing boat resto and build channels just because there are more of them and you can take relevant parts to your project if you wish. Doubt I’ll ever own a sailing boat. 
 

..or you can whine that it’s not the same anymore and do nothing except sit on a keyboard slagging off others work and ideas.  🤔
 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

3 hours ago, Rod Stewart said:

Yet, you still remain,and continue to post, as does your friend .

Odd how these newbies keep complaining the forum's got worse. Presumably since they joined, as the main complainers have only been here for a short time and at least one of them is a fantasist who has never even been on a boat. Cause and effect is an odd thing.

For Info, GybeHo joined in 2024, Truckcab in 23. Still, they add to the jollity, which is a good thing in these dark times and, as they seem to have nothing constructive to post (understandably enough, due to their inexperience), that is probably enough.

[truckcab79]

11 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Odd how these newbies keep complaining the forum's got worse. Presumably since they joined, as the main complainers have only been here for a short time and at least one of them is a fantasist who has never even been on a boat. Cause and effect is an odd thing.

For Info, GybeHo joined in 2024, Truckcab in 23. Still, they add to the jollity, which is a good thing in these dark times and, as they seem to have nothing constructive to post (understandably enough, due to their inexperience), that is probably enough.

Very constructive. 😂😂😂

[Gybe Ho]

When planning the cabinet layout I arranged the hot components to avoid convected heat warming another hot component above. I also intend to avoid letting heat generated in the batteries wafting upwards into the main cabinet above as per Victron standard advice even though I cannot afford their lithium batteries.

 

I have a question about ducting to exhaust heat from the cabinet,

 

Given 3 heat sources below, the most testing scenario would be when moored in a marina on a hot summers day to do a Tesla style rapid charge of say 25kWh. If the marina bollard can cope, the Multiplus would charge at 4kW, at the same time the solar might be generating be at max headline panel rate of 1.7kW and if many of 24v domestic circuits are on the DC/DC convertor could be working at 400 watts.

 

Invertor/Charger 4kW at 91% efficiency = 360 

MPPT 1.7kW at 95% efficiency = 87

DC/DC 0.4kW at 87% efficiency = 52

 

By my calcs the worst case heat generation in the cabinet would be 500 watts and that requires mechanical removal.

 

Does anyone recognize the ducting shown in the first 30 seconds in this video? It looks like a 100mm square fan connected to a slim box shaped duct.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6upMwO-x8so

 

 

[truckcab79]

9 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

When planning the cabinet layout I arranged the hot components to avoid convected heat warming another hot component above. I also intend to avoid letting heat generated in the batteries wafting upwards into the main cabinet above as per Victron standard advice even though I cannot afford their lithium batteries.

 

I have a question about ducting to exhaust heat from the cabinet,

 

Given 3 heat sources below, the most testing scenario would be when moored in a marina on a hot summers day to do a Tesla style rapid charge of say 25kWh. If the marina bollard can cope, the Multiplus would charge at 4kW, at the same time the solar might be generating be at max headline panel rate of 1.7kW and if many of 24v domestic circuits are on the DC/DC convertor could be working at 400 watts.

 

Invertor/Charger 4kW at 91% efficiency = 360 

MPPT 1.7kW at 95% efficiency = 87

DC/DC 0.4kW at 87% efficiency = 52

 

By my calcs the worst case heat generation in the cabinet would be 500 watts and that requires mechanical removal.

 

Does anyone recognize the ducting shown in the first 30 seconds in this video? It looks like a 100mm square fan connected to a slim box shaped duct.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6upMwO-x8so

 

 

 

My respect to you for endeavouring to keep your thread on track. I will refrain from posting more on it as I don’t want to be responsible for more distraction and another ruined thread. 

All the best. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

When planning the cabinet layout I arranged the hot components to avoid convected heat warming another hot component above. I also intend to avoid letting heat generated in the batteries wafting upwards into the main cabinet above as per Victron standard advice even though I cannot afford their lithium batteries.

 

I have a question about ducting to exhaust heat from the cabinet,

 

Given 3 heat sources below, the most testing scenario would be when moored in a marina on a hot summers day to do a Tesla style rapid charge of say 25kWh. If the marina bollard can cope, the Multiplus would charge at 4kW, at the same time the solar might be generating be at max headline panel rate of 1.7kW and if many of 24v domestic circuits are on the DC/DC convertor could be working at 400 watts.

 

Invertor/Charger 4kW at 91% efficiency = 360 

MPPT 1.7kW at 95% efficiency = 87

DC/DC 0.4kW at 87% efficiency = 52

 

By my calcs the worst case heat generation in the cabinet would be 500 watts and that requires mechanical removal.

 

Does anyone recognize the ducting shown in the first 30 seconds in this video? It looks like a 100mm square fan connected to a slim box shaped duct.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6upMwO-x8so

 

 

Is it not just maxi trunking 100mmx100mm or skirting trunking 100mmx50mm?  TLC Direct will have it if so. 

Edited January 5, 2025 by truckcab79

[ditchcrawler]

14 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 . If the marina bollard can cope, the Multiplus would charge at 4kW,  

 

 

You would be very lucky to get that, I take it you are planning for a 32 amp shore connection. Most marinas you would be lucky to get the rated 16 amps at 230 volts 

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

When planning the cabinet layout I arranged the hot components to avoid convected heat warming another hot component above. I also intend to avoid letting heat generated in the batteries wafting upwards into the main cabinet above as per Victron standard advice even though I cannot afford their lithium batteries.

 

I have a question about ducting to exhaust heat from the cabinet,

 

Given 3 heat sources below, the most testing scenario would be when moored in a marina on a hot summers day to do a Tesla style rapid charge of say 25kWh. If the marina bollard can cope, the Multiplus would charge at 4kW, at the same time the solar might be generating be at max headline panel rate of 1.7kW and if many of 24v domestic circuits are on the DC/DC convertor could be working at 400 watts.

 

Invertor/Charger 4kW at 91% efficiency = 360 

MPPT 1.7kW at 95% efficiency = 87

DC/DC 0.4kW at 87% efficiency = 52

 

By my calcs the worst case heat generation in the cabinet would be 500 watts and that requires mechanical removal.

 

Does anyone recognize the ducting shown in the first 30 seconds in this video? It looks like a 100mm square fan connected to a slim box shaped duct.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6upMwO-x8so

 

 

I have 140mm 2000rpm fans for cooling my electrical cabinet, with 125mm bore insulated flexible ducting to the outside world.

 

One fan blowing cold air in (plus a passive exit duct) has not provided enough airflow, the air temperature inside the cabinet next to the Quattro air intake can reach more than 40C (+15C temperature rise) after several hours of generator use for charging (this is what gets the Quattro hottest). I'm going to add a second fan on the exhaust side, this should roughly triple the airflow and drop the temperature rise to about 5C.

 

(more than doubled since the cabinet is not airtight, and some of the cool incoming air leaks out past the doors when the generator is running and pulling air in from outside via a thire 125mm duct)

[Gybe Ho]

13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

You would be very lucky to get that

 

 

I thought that might be the case. I was planning cabinet cooling for a worst case scenario. The Multplus can be configured to draw at lower rate. My expectations do not exceed 16 amps which is close enough to 4kW.

 

28 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

 

Is it not just maxi trunking 100mmx100mm or skirting trunking 100mmx50mm?  TLC Direct will have it if so. 

 

 

Not sure I have not needed ducting before. From the video I got the impression the overhanging fan is a snug fit and part of an integrated heat extraction ducting system.

Edited January 5, 2025 by Gybe Ho

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I thought that might be the case. I was planning cabinet cooling for a worst case scenario. The Multplus can be configured to draw at lower rate. My expectations do not exceed 16 amps which is close enough to 4kW.

 

Not sure I have not needed ducting before. From the video I got the impression the overhanging fan is a snug fit and part of an integrated heat extraction ducting system.

 

I looked at using rigid built-in ducting and rejected the idea. Flexible ducting is cheap and far easier to use and connect up to circular air vents in the hull, like these.

 

 

[Paul C]

1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

 

I have a question about ducting to exhaust heat from the cabinet,

 

 

 

 

Personally, if I were designing a boat from scratch, I'd duct the air from the cabinet to the outside. The reason being, if there's a fire (which is more likely than other areas, since its full of electrics) it would minimise the spread.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Personally, if I were designing a boat from scratch, I'd duct the air from the cabinet to the outside. The reason being, if there's a fire (which is more likely than other areas, since its full of electrics) it would minimise the spread.

Also air from outside is usually cooler. I have a cold air inlet vent at one end of the cabinet (behind the IT) and a hot air exhaust vent at the other (next to the hot air from the top of the Quattro), both ducted to the outside. All this (and generator, diesel boiler, calorifier, motor, batteries, MPPTs...) is in the engineering space under the stern deck where an engine would be, with a steel bulkhead between this and the living space.

 

The only electrics inside the boat cabin are the Cerbo GX and display and the AC/DC distribution panels.

Edited January 5, 2025 by IanD

[jim mitchell]

Gybe Ho , Do you actually need the panel C   acting as a divider, moving the MPPT up 75 mm (all its connections are bottom entry?),  and then  move the Multi left by 100mm and if you reposition the isolater that's just left of the 24V switch panel (higher ?) the DC to DC and Cerbo would comfortably fit on the combined Panels B/D  which would leave a very roomy electrics area and simply airflow for cooling perhaps via standard trunking 100 x 100mm run across the top  with 1, 2. or even 3 fans to "pull" hot air and direct it to the Galley _ the fans could be wired to run only when a unit needs cooling eg  one switched (on the end ) when MPPT operates , one above the Multiplus etc

[Gybe Ho]

4 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

Personally, if I were designing a boat from scratch, I'd duct the air from the cabinet to the outside. The reason being, if there's a fire (which is more likely than other areas, since its full of electrics) it would minimise the spread.

 

Yes I went through the same thought process. The factors that swayed me were free heat from the cabinet fed into the galley, installation simplicity and concerns of water ingress in challenging locks. Having recently seen Mrs Mindful's traumatic decent of the deep lock at the eastern end of the Rochdale, that involved an urgent reflooding the lock, I am wary of creating a conduit for Niagara falls direct into the electric cabinet.

 

The Victron stuff is heat tolerant,  it just looses efficiency.

 

On the other side I am concerned about venting electrical hot circuit smells into the galley way be anything ignites.

 

Mrs Mindful's entertaining lock decent in her 60 footer = https://youtu.be/4NgILOZxtac?t=1260

 

 

4 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

The reason being, if there's a fire (which is more likely than other areas, since its full of electrics) it would minimise the spread.

 

 

You are right all those amps and stored kWh are a big fire risk. I will need to run some high amp soak tests and examine all joints with an IR temperature gun or FLIR camera. I understand I will need to retorque all the major connections after initial use. During the build I will have to find some method to apply a 10kW load at the end of the motor supply cables so that I can monitor the whole setup under sustained load.

 

In general some heat extraction in the cabinet will put me at an advantage to most narrowboat setups where increasing electrical complexity is stuffed into a small locker and fingers are crossed that the heat will find a way out. 

4 hours ago, IanD said:

Also air from outside is usually cooler. I have a cold air inlet vent at one end of the cabinet (behind the IT) and a hot air exhaust vent at the other (next to the hot air from the top of the Quattro), both ducted to the outside.

 

Cool air input... not an option I had considered. I hope that with  pram hood over the cruiser stern and the Oakum stile inner galley door I will be able to let cool air into the cabinet by leaving the sliding main hatch open.

Edited January 6, 2025 by Gybe Ho

[Gybe Ho]

46 minutes ago, jim mitchell said:

Gybe Ho , Do you actually need the panel C   acting as a divider, moving the MPPT up 75 mm (all its connections are bottom entry?),  and then  move the Multi left by 100mm and if you reposition the isolater that's just left of the 24V switch panel (higher ?) the DC to DC and Cerbo would comfortably fit on the combined Panels B/D  which would leave a very roomy electrics area and simply airflow for cooling perhaps via standard trunking 100 x 100mm run across the top  with 1, 2. or even 3 fans to "pull" hot air and direct it to the Galley _ the fans could be wired to run only when a unit needs cooling eg  one switched (on the end ) when MPPT operates , one above the Multiplus etc

 

I will have to think about your post but as a FYI the following videos demonstrate the layout I want. In this video you will see that panel C is a divide to create the panel D inset with the switch panels above and a seat below. My battery bank will be higher so not seat.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5pS34lmA5A&t=479s

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5pS34lmA5A&t=1256s

 

[Slim]

Reading a number of the posts on this topic I'm just amazed that I managed to design the fit out (and carry out the work itself) of a bare shell to a fully (well) fitted boat without recourse to posting every step in order to obtain peer approval. I accept that systems have become more sophisticated (do i mean complex ?) Amazingly I found that a good 90% of my 'design' proved both workable and effective whilst about 5% could have been better (but not much). Mind you, I'm just one of those old f**ts some dismiss. Never mind, in time they will become old f**ts.

[Arthur Marshall]

3 minutes ago, Slim said:

Reading a number of the posts on this topic I'm just amazed that I managed to design the fit out (and carry out the work itself) of a bare shell to a fully (well) fitted boat without recourse to posting every step in order to obtain peer approval. I accept that systems have become more sophisticated (do i mean complex ?) Amazingly I found that a good 90% of my 'design' proved both workable and effective whilst about 5% could have been better (but not much). Mind you, I'm just one of those old f**ts some dismiss. Never mind, in time they will become old f**ts.

Me too. And there wasn't even YouTube then to tell me how to do it. Weird. I just put insulation in, did the walls, floor and roof, electrics, got a bloke to do the gas, and I've been happily pottering around in it ever since.

Of course, it's much cheaper when you haven't got a boat to start with and never will have. But like fantasy football.

[truckcab79]

45 minutes ago, Slim said:

Reading a number of the posts on this topic I'm just amazed that I managed to design the fit out (and carry out the work itself) of a bare shell to a fully (well) fitted boat without recourse to posting every step in order to obtain peer approval. I accept that systems have become more sophisticated (do i mean complex ?) Amazingly I found that a good 90% of my 'design' proved both workable and effective whilst about 5% could have been better (but not much). Mind you, I'm just one of those old f**ts some dismiss. Never mind, in time they will become old f**ts.

 

38 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Me too. And there wasn't even YouTube then to tell me how to do it. Weird. I just put insulation in, did the walls, floor and roof, electrics, got a bloke to do the gas, and I've been happily pottering around in it ever since.

Of course, it's much cheaper when you haven't got a boat to start with and never will have. But like fantasy football.

 

 

Maybe start a thread each to show us all the clever stuff you’ve built 🤔. I’m sure we’d all love to see how it’s done. 
 

….or you could add something useful to someone else’s.
 

‘Been there, done that, know everything there is to know, forgotten more than you’ll ever learn’……..

 

the mantra of the truly ignorant.  

 

I’d lay good money you were ‘educated at the University of Life’ too. 😂😂😂

Edited January 5, 2025 by truckcab79

[Gybe Ho]

52 minutes ago, Slim said:

Reading a number of the posts on this topic I'm just amazed that I managed to design the fit out (and carry out the work itself) of a bare shell to a fully (well) fitted boat without recourse to posting every step in order to obtain peer approval. I accept that systems have become more sophisticated (do i mean complex ?) Amazingly I found that a good 90% of my 'design' proved both workable and effective whilst about 5% could have been better (but not much). Mind you, I'm just one of those old f**ts some dismiss. Never mind, in time they will become old f**ts.

 

Has it occurred to you that this actual post of yours was to gain peer approval, well I hope that is the reason because the alternatives are darker.

[truckcab79]

6 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Has it occurred to you that this actual post of yours was to gain peer approval, well I hope that is the reason because the alternatives are darker.

And as if by magic gained some of that desperately sought approval from someone who couldn’t resist replying with:  

 

‘Me too. And there wasn't even YouTube then to tell me how to do it. Weird. I just put insulation in, did the walls, floor and roof, electrics’

 

Me too! Me too! Me too!  😂😂😂
 

Others will have to make do with simply getting on and actually doing (or planning) stuff while also opening up their projects for discussion because we’re happy not to know it all.  No shame in that.