Review my fitout plan - Electrics Cabinet

[Gybe Ho]

Let's see how far this one gets before Moderator intervention, no stud walls are planned for the electrics cabinet.

 

Notes:

1. The grid squares represent 100mm squares.
2. 240 volt ac cables are shown in yellow but will be blue artic 2.5mm2.
3. The green circles represent cable connections that would be too messy to draw and/or they will be panel holes leading to hidden conduits.
4. The hardest thing to understand is that panels A and C are actually 90 degrees to Panel B. There is a plan in the top corner showing the relative panel positions aft in the boat.
5. I have not found a 48v bilge pump and at present there is unconnected fudge in the middle of the diagram for non switched circuits.
6. Green is for  VE.Canbus or other signal circuits like a remote contact switch.
7. The Victron gear is drawn to scale including height projection over the adjoining panel.

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2025 by Gybe Ho

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, Gybe Ho said:

Let's see how far this one gets before Moderator intervention, no stud walls are planned for the electrics cabinet.

 

Notes:

 

 

I'm sorry, but this doesn't wash.

 

Moderator input is for comment, nor somebody's wish to recreate or change the planet.

So Moderators on this forum cannot remove your post just because it is right, wrong, needs severe change or amendment. 

Stud walls or not is up to you.

It's your boat, RCD looms.

 

[ditchcrawler]

Has the moderator removed one of your posts.?

[Gybe Ho]

14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Has the moderator removed one of your posts.?

 

I don't think so and never suggested they did. They did lock down the Fitout Plan Lights thread when the stud wall diversion got out of hand.

Edited January 5, 2025 by Gybe Ho

[Paul C]

I'll stick with my previous suggestion - actually go boating, rather than sit at home planning things. Hire boats tend to be quite logically laid out and it doesn't take long to suss out what's what on their electrics systems. Private boats, especially older ones, tend to be more of a mess with "organic" additions over time, so it could be a good idea to try look at as many private boats to see what NOT to do.

[Russ T]

Well, I think it looks very nice Mr Ho! Well done to you.

[hider]

Wonderful!   

 

Plenty of scope for lots to go wrong there. Fixing the faults will keep you occupied and stop you from cruising for a long time.

Perhaps it will be a good thing?

 

When will you get some boating experience though instead of day dreaming?

[Russ T]

3 minutes ago, hider said:

When will you get some boating experience though instead of day dreaming?

Maybe when it isn't below freezing outside, the stoppages are fewer and the promise of warmer days will put some charge into his depleted cells.

[PeterF]

Why is your Class T fuse in the negative, you need to be very careful about negative isolation resulting in currents trying to flow through minor wiring like communication cables given the Lynx shunt, MPPT, Multiplus, BMS etc. will all be interconnected via the Cerbo GX and who knows what common grounds may occur in there or elsewhere in the system.

[truckcab79]

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record (heaven forbid), then Facebook 12v boating groups are a better option for your questions. As with everything electrical whether houses or boat you’ll get 100 answers as to what is ‘correct’ and ‘best’. I posted mine on there and after three or four drafts to correct oversights on my drawing one of the guys who’s does it for a living offered to run an eye over it one to one.  The version I’ve now got I’m sure people will still disagree with but it will work and will be safe which is all I really need.  
 

Facebook aside then I’ve also found the chaps at SurgeMarine on Instagram really helpful. Worth a chat with them. They’re pros but always seem to be willing to give their time and knowledge for free to the boating community.

[Russ T]

Yes, deffo try facebook Mr Ho.

[Tonka]

13 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record (heaven forbid), then Facebook 12v boating groups are a better option for your questions. As with everything electrical whether houses or boat you’ll get 100 answers as to what is ‘correct’ and ‘best’. I posted mine on there and after three or four drafts to correct oversights on my drawing one of the guys who’s does it for a living offered to run an eye over it one to one.  The version I’ve now got I’m sure people will still disagree with but it will work and will be safe which is all I really need.  
 

Facebook aside then I’ve also found the chaps at SurgeMarine on Instagram really helpful. Worth a chat with them. They’re pros but always seem to be willing to give their time and knowledge for free to the boating community.

Are you saying that because Facebook is better then here 

Or 

Are you just hoping to get rid of him to Facebook 

[truckcab79]

28 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Are you saying that because Facebook is better then here 

Or 

Are you just hoping to get rid of him to Facebook 

Wouldn’t really want to get rid of anyone to be honest. There’s little enough traffic on here as it is so anyone with something new to discuss is always welcome by me, and I can’t see what the forum gains by people just making snide comments rather than either just offering the info requested if they know, or keeping quiet if they don’t. 
 

‘Better’ to me is a wider population to garner ideas from and ideally a selection of genuine current trade experts as opposed to opinions and potentially out of date info from a tiny number of folk who think they know what they’re talking about and convince others likewise because they don’t know any better. 
 

Electrics is a tough one as there rarely seems to be a ‘right’ answer. It’s the same for household electricians, so more people to balance the opinions can only be a positive.  
 

In my circumstances I got what I needed from Facebook and Instagram. Doesn’t  make it right but I’m happier to have made my decisions with a broader input and I’m still interested to read others questions on here to further my understanding.
 

 

Therefore it’s still of interest if anyone can answer the OP question rather than using it as an opportunity to have a pointless dig at him.  
 

 

[Paul C]

15 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

 

Electrics is a tough one as there rarely seems to be a ‘right’ answer.
 

 

I think its definitely an area where there's a number of options, all valid. There are very simple setup, then you can gradually add complexity. But I'd say for each extra step of complexity, you need to decide if the extra effort and expense yields a benefit.

 

Things seem to have "settled" on a reasonably modern boat having twin alternators, a domestic bank of 3-4x 100Ah or thereabouts lead acid batteries and a mains hookup. Having a combi really helps the simplicity, because it combines charger/inverter/selection switch/consumer unit into one and eliminates some complexity. But then if it fails, you have to replace an expensive unit not just the failed component. But there's plenty of boats out there with separate charger and inverter too. And plenty older which don't have, or need, mains at all.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

Are you saying that because Facebook is better then here 

Or 

Are you just hoping to get rid of him to Facebook 

I would say from what I have seen there are only 2 possibly 3 people on here that actually have experience of what he is trying to do and at least two of them are also on Facebook. On Facebook there is a whole group dedicated to electric boating as well as other groups so a much bigger sounding board. Like hear you have to decide on who you trust and what information is sound.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

 

I think its definitely an area where there's a number of options, all valid. There are very simple setup, then you can gradually add complexity. But I'd say for each extra step of complexity, you need to decide if the extra effort and expense yields a benefit.

 

Things seem to have "settled" on a reasonably modern boat having twin alternators, a domestic bank of 3-4x 100Ah or thereabouts lead acid batteries and a mains hookup. Having a combi really helps the simplicity, because it combines charger/inverter/selection switch/consumer unit into one and eliminates some complexity. But then if it fails, you have to replace an expensive unit not just the failed component. But there's plenty of boats out there with separate charger and inverter too. And plenty older which don't have, or need, mains at all.

 

But the big 'sea-change' is the use of lithiums, either as propulsion or just 'domestics' bringing a potential whole host of problems as the technology and installation practices (particularly DIY) are still in their infancy.

 

The boating insurance, and safety (BSS / RCR)  industries are still trying to play catchup but, it'll all get sorted as the technology matures and standards are written and 'best practice' is developed.

[truckcab79]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would say from what I have seen there are only 2 possibly 3 people on here that actually have experience of what he is trying to do and at least two of them are also on Facebook. On Facebook there is a whole group dedicated to electric boating as well as other groups so a much bigger sounding board. Like hear you have to decide on who you trust and what information is sound.

Precisely. And the smaller the gene pool the more likelihood (on all media formats) that you just get one ‘expert’ and then an echo-chamber of less knowledgeable folk telling you that that individual is the expert. Better to widen the net. 

[Gybe Ho]

2 hours ago, PeterF said:

Why is your Class T fuse in the negative, you need to be very careful about negative isolation resulting in currents trying to flow through minor wiring like communication cables given the Lynx shunt, MPPT, Multiplus, BMS etc...

 

 

Now corrected, thanks.

 

I looked at many boat wiring diagrams with the switch on the positive and a shunt on the negative, at some point that became "switched positive and everything else on the negative side in my design". A high current isolation switch is 100mm square and a large capacity T-class fuse holders is 160mm long. It is becoming difficult to fit is all in while keeping 500 amp cable to acceptable bend radius limits.

 

One benefit of sketching out the physical electrics installation to scale is that impossible ideas get highlighted. The more youthful RV community take this to the next step and mock up their electrics cabinet with cardboard templates, they are working with smaller spaces.

[truckcab79]

Good idea. Once happy with layout on screen I laid it all out in ‘real time’ to determine cable runs made sense, what would come in and out where, that it fitted, and what size cabinet I’d need to build to house it and allow for future additions. 

[PeterF]

7 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

t is becoming difficult to fit is all in while keeping 500 amp cable to acceptable bend radius limits.

The boat fitter.on mine used welding cable with rubber sheath that has a tighter bending radius than common PVC insulated DC cable.

 

Example welding cable

[Alan de Enfield]

When in 'gainful employment' one of my job functions was the design and planning of exhibition stands, I eventually realised that there was no substitute for actual experience.

 

I found that the use of graph paper, then computer drawing programmes, and even cardboard cut-outs still resulted in actual usage probems in reality.

 

When booking very expensive exhibition space by the square-metre every 'inch' saved is important

 

One thing I quickly found was that 'things' tend to be 3-dimensional, and the size of some things change with use.

One of my 1st big mistakes was designing the 'office' so as it could contain a table, coffee machine, fridge and 4 chairs all fitted perfectly until the reality hit, that chairs are pulled out from under a table to a distance of 'the depth of the chair + a human being'.  There was not enough room to do this. Oooops.

 

Remember things are 3D !

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

A high current isolation switch is 100mm square and a large capacity T-class fuse holders is 160mm long. It is becoming difficult to fit is all in while keeping 500 amp cable to acceptable bend radius limits.

 

Just a thought, as it will be short, how about copper bar sheathed in a couple of layers of heat shrink. That could be bent to almost a right angle and once done won't be trying to straighten itself, putting a degree of stress on the terminal studs. It would not be much different from a bus bar, and can't see it being a BSS or RCR problem, any more than similar metal conductors inside things like inverters and 2V battery cells.

[Gybe Ho]

3 hours ago, hider said:

Wonderful!   

 

Plenty of scope for lots to go wrong there. Fixing the faults will keep you occupied and stop you from cruising for a long time.

Perhaps it will be a good thing?

 

 

A serial hybrid is simpler than a trad boat with a typical electrics installation that has evolved over decades across epochs in marine electrics technology. My design features:

• Shore power.
• Battery Charger.
• MTTP solar controller
• Solar Dump
• Calorifier immersion powered via solar dump or invertor
• Domestic cabin circuits connected a midship and forward distribution bus, which greatly simplifies cabling runs.
• Remote invertor switch in the galley next to the microwave.
• Remote easy access isolator switch that is better than the physical isolator because it digitally instructs the MPPT and Charger to shutdown before pinging open the shunt relay.

 

Which feature would you drop to simplify the setup?

 

Modern complexity is just 48v to 24v conversion and the computer Cerbo brain. The nice thing about the Victron ecoshere is that the design and status of the boat's electrics is replicated to a digital twin online. Any visiting boat electrician will in future be able to eyeball the digital twin online before heading out to a boat to diagnose problems. 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Gybe Ho said:

The nice thing about the Victron ecoshere is that the design and status of the boat's electrics is replicated to a digital twin online. Any visiting boat electrician will in future be able to eyeball the digital twin online before heading out to a boat to diagnose problems. 

 

 

 I suspect, apart from a very few "boat electricians", that should read a long time in the future.

[Gybe Ho]

3 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record (heaven forbid), then Facebook 12v boating groups are a better option for your questions. As with everything electrical whether houses or boat you’ll get 100 answers as to what is ‘correct’ and ‘best’. I posted mine on there and after three or four drafts to correct oversights on my drawing one of the guys who’s does it for a living offered to run an eye over it one to one.  The version I’ve now got I’m sure people will still disagree with but it will work and will be safe which is all I really need.  
 

Facebook aside then I’ve also found the chaps at SurgeMarine on Instagram... 

 

 

Yes I keep delaying taking the plunge into full social media. Now it seems I will have to create both Facebook and Instagram accounts.

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

 I suspect, apart from a very few "boat electricians", that should read a long time in the future.

 

That's true, it might take 5 years to become routine for new boats. The typical boatowner with wonky electrics probably pays £100 to cover the cost of an electrician spending a couple of hours tracing circuits onboard with a flashlight before electrician starts to think about a fix.

 

Remote diagnostics became a thing 10 years ago in grand prix ocean racing, shore teams would keep an eye on boat systems while the solo sailor slept. 

39 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Remember things are 3D !

 

 

I got caught out with that problem yesterday when I realized the power cables to the motor would exit into the ankle of someone standing on the top step of the entrance steps.

 

I have a load of 12mm OSB and 2x1 in the garage which would allow me to mock up the whole thing at full scale. Garden hose would be a good substitute for 95mm2 cable I hope. Before doing this I need to confirm implementation details with the electric motor supplier, if they say I must keep the supply cable to under 1m then the batteries will have to live in the engine bay but I cannot afford @IanD's super low temp lithiums that are currently 3x the price of regular lithium cells following the big price drops.

 

For the first time in my fitout planning stage I now have enough detail to price up the minor stuff. The major blue Victron boxes come in under £2k which as was a pleasant surprise, 48v stuff is cheaper. £700 for a 5000 invertor/ charger what a bargain. I can now budget for the minor bits e.g.. two class T fuses £100, £70 odd for a chunky fuse holder, £100 for the large master isolator. I now have an idea of the number and length of data cables needed.