Any hope of finding this engine's history/number?

[bigoltubosteel]

We have just bought a narrowboat with (allegedly) a 1935 Gardner 3LW from a Dutch Bus (so a Kromhout I guess?) but there is no sign of an engine number in the usual places. Nothing on the plate on the injector other than the pump number and I chemically stripped the paint from the block behind it and there is nothing there.  Is there any other way of finding out it's history?

 

Edit: I know the names of the only other 2 owners, maybe they registered it with GEF?

 

Edited December 1, 2024 by bigolslabomeat
Adding extra

[john.k]

Seems underpowered for a bus? ........prewar 3LW would be 48hp? ...........possibly a replacement crankcase .

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, john.k said:

Seems underpowered for a bus? ........prewar 3LW would be 48hp? ...........possibly a replacement crankcase .

 

Remember, much of Holland is very flat with no real hills. I recall Dutchlorrins in the UK struggling on our longer and higher hills - crawling along.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, john.k said:

Seems underpowered for a bus? ........prewar 3LW would be 48hp? ...........possibly a replacement crankcase .

 

I'd agree, and further I think the Kromhaut versions were proper marine engines where you can separate and lift off the cylinder block from the crankcase. Significantly more valuable than a basic 3LW. 

 

Mind you I know nothing about Gardners. Not proper vintage engines if you can't see the flywheel! 

 

 

[Joe Bourke]

It might be worth trying the Kromhout Museum.

[john.k]

The 6LW crankcases would often break at the front .........cant see a 3 breaking though.......may have had a broken rod at some time.

[bigoltubosteel]

4 hours ago, Joe Bourke said:

It might be worth trying the Kromhout Museum.

Thanks for this suggestion, I have sent them an email with what information and pictures I have 🤞

[bigoltubosteel]

The Kromhout museum got back to me and gave the details of an individual that keeps the documentation. He seems to think it's an English Gardner but may have been sent over to Kromhout in their early days.

 

Quote

At the beginning Goedkoop imported the English Gardner to buy a licence and to build the Gardner in its own Kromhout Motoren Fabriek.

 

From that time on the factoryname is “Kromhout Gardner”.

 

So the engine involved is may be one of the imported Gardner engines that among other things were build in Kromhout busses but can be from an English car/bus. So actualy you will have to look in the archives of Gardner for the serial number.

 

There also was an English Kromhout importer (British Kromhout). And later Kromhout engines were build in England in licence.

 

The search continues......

 

[Clanky]

According to marine power services website other locations to look are

 

• Flywheel
• Injector pump insertion plate
• Brass engine rating plate (located on front of injector pump)
• Rocker cover/s

[bigoltubosteel]

The incredibly helpful Martyn at MPS managed to spot an engine number on the injection pump insertion plate from some photos I sent him, that puts the date (of that part at least) in the second half of 1959. He's also told me how to find it on the flywheel so that will be a job for the weekend. It's feeling likely that it's an engine without one single date but rather a range 😂

[bigoltubosteel]

Had the timing inspection hatch open today and found another engine number from 1943. Getting closer, but still not the claimed 1935.  That's probably the end of the trail, unless the original builder has records.

[BEngo]

Major fleet operators with multiple engines of the same type could have been expected to have an in-house overhaul operation.  These were generally no respectors of originality.  Engines went in, were dismantled, components  examined, re-machined as needed and rebuilt engines assembled.  Whether the flywheel came fom the same original engine as the crankcase or  camshaft was not important.  The output, as a running power unit, was.

  That means what was originally a "Kromhout bus engine"  might well have started a new career as an assortment of Kromhout and Gardner and locally remachined components, all  masquerading as a Kromhout  marine power unit.

 

Still a good engine for all that .

 

 

N

 

[bigoltubosteel]

This engine has a new mystery, where it keeps all the oil...

 

Spent 3 HOURS pumping oil out with the little pump attached to the side, nearly filled the container we had brought to collect the old oil in but it was still going. It was probably a 40L container and only a couple of inches from the top when we gave up.

 

She then drank 25L of fresh oil and only just hit the minimum marker on the dipstick.  These are supposed to take/need 13L so now I need to get underneath and see what kind of sump she's sitting on because there's no way she would be running fine with around three times the recommended amount of oil unless there is some crazy giant sump situation going on.

[magnetman]

15 hours ago, bigolslabomeat said:

This engine has a new mystery, where it keeps all the oil...

 

Spent 3 HOURS pumping oil out with the little pump attached to the side, nearly filled the container we had brought to collect the old oil in but it was still going. It was probably a 40L container and only a couple of inches from the top when we gave up.

 

She then drank 25L of fresh oil and only just hit the minimum marker on the dipstick.  These are supposed to take/need 13L so now I need to get underneath and see what kind of sump she's sitting on because there's no way she would be running fine with around three times the recommended amount of oil unless there is some crazy giant sump situation going on.

Marine engines should ideally have larger sumps than industrial units as the sump itself can't be used as part of the cooling system due to not being exposed. 

 

If it was a crane engine the sump could exchange heat with the surrounding air. A marine engine sump will be low down underneath a hot engine so unless it is someone water cooled its going to get a bit warm. 

 

[cuthound]

If the engine formed part of a standby generator set it will probably had a large capacity sump (or fitted with a lube oil make up tank and REN regulators) to allow the generator to run continuously for periods of 5 days or longer without attention.

[bigoltubosteel]

Went down to the boat today and took a look at the sump. Through the medium of my incredible art skills, let me demonstrate the shape/size of the fitted sump vs an illustration of the wonderful lines of the original:

 

 

I didn't have a measure with me, but it's basically a bloody big bath 😂

[Clanky]

My 3LW takes 15 litres of oil.

[magnetman]

There was a suggestion earlier by the OP that this may be Kromhout/Gardner. 

 

I don't know the full story but I think that Gardner must have licensed their designs to Kromhout. Maybe sump size was not part of the design and the people at Kromhout liked having big sumps on their units. 

 

 

So the main thing is the same as a Gardner but some ancillary parts are different. 

 

To be fair a sump is a critical part not an ancillary. 

[bigoltubosteel]

The Kromhout link came from the previous owner who said the engine was "from a Dutch bus", but that's the only link to Kromhout I have been able to find.  The museum don't have any records of it, the injector pump is not of the type Kromhout used and with all the different years on all the parts it is unlikely anyone will find anything.  I have spoken to the boat builder today (Paul Barber) and he said that the man who commissioned the boat sourced the engine, they just fitted it. He is currently selling another boat he's built so I have reached out to the broker to see if they will pass on my details to him so I can ask for a few more details.

[Split Pin]

Kromhout built engines under licence from Gardner's as far as I can ascertain the first engine was a 4LW serial number 6970  delivered  in September 1933.

Gardner's had previously licenced a little end design from Kromhout for use in the "T" series engines. So there was some previous collaboration between the two companies. I think that Kromhout purchased some raw castings as part of the agreement, then finished machining them in house, Kromhout did have ideas of their own and did use their own versions of things like injectors. They also used metric fasteners, in some cases they had Whitworth hexagon sizes. 

 

In 1935 Gardner's licenced 50 3LW's between engine numbers 7391 and 7758. So that is the range of number that you need to find to confirm it as a 1935 build.
Another place that you may find a number or date is the flat surface above the starter motor mounting, or on the back face of the crankcase, usually only visible when the engine is stripped. Gardner's stamped the crankcase with its test date which is usually a little bit before the delivery date.

Kromhout built engines usually have "Kromhout" aluminium covers on the cylinder head although they could easily have been lost/changed for Gardner ones.

 

As regards the sump Gardner's listed  3 different sumps for the 3LW they all look to have the same capacity of 3 Gallons.

Neither your boat name of engine appear in the GEF membership list so it looks as if the previous owners were never members.

If you can find another number I may be able to find more information if it is a Kromhout built engine.

For comparison a Kromhout 3LS which utilised a LW block on an L2 type of crankcase, one of the variations that were produced.

Steven
 

[bigoltubosteel]

Thanks for that info Steven.  The numbers I have are:

• Flywheel: 60082
• Injector insertion plate (injector brass plate has no engine number stamped) : 122?75
• Side of cylinder block (assume it's a part number as it's part of the cast) : E4934

It has the gauze oil filter and the oil bath air filter (we think it's a Gardner one based on the plaque, colour and size of the inlet), but not sure that ages anything other than those specific parts.

 

Quote

Another place that you may find a number or date is the flat surface above the starter motor mounting

Do you mean here (not the brass plaque but the flat surface with three prongs)?

 

[magnetman]

If the sump is the shape shown in the red outline in an earlier post could it have been a fabricated replacement for the original article? 

 

If the original had been cracked or damaged somehow the engine might have ended up being sold for scrap value. Someone clever might have spotted it and had a custom made sump fabricated for it. 

 

Much easier to fab a 'great big bath' than a shaped sump and there would be no disadvantages to having a large sump in a canal Boat. 

[bigoltubosteel]

Just now, magnetman said:

Much easier to fab a 'great big bath' than a shaped sump and there would be no disadvantages to having a large sump in a canal Boat. 

 

Apart from how much it costs to change the oil 😂

 

I think you are right though, it's tough to see in detail but it does look "simpler" than the official ones and larger on at least one edge than the crankcase above it (i.e. the edge sticks out, not open to the world)

[Clanky]

the flywheel number places it between July and December 1943

[Split Pin]

On 09/12/2024 at 17:02, bigolslabomeat said:

Thanks for that info Steven.  The numbers I have are:

• Flywheel: 60082
• Injector insertion plate (injector brass plate has no engine number stamped) : 122?75
• Side of cylinder block (assume it's a part number as it's part of the cast) : E4934

It has the gauze oil filter and the oil bath air filter (we think it's a Gardner one based on the plaque, colour and size of the inlet), but not sure that ages anything other than those specific parts.

 

Do you mean here (not the brass plaque but the flat surface with three prongs)?

 

Yes that is where you may find a date.
 The E4934 is a casting ref number.

The other position is on the back of the crankcase as per the picture in this case the engine build was tested in May 1952