Towing a Converted Lifeboat Forth Clyde Canal

[Jack 1Boom]

Hello boaters!

 

We're new owners of a renovated lifeboat that sits on the Forth & Clyde canal at Applecross, Glasgow. The engine on the lifeboat is a BUKH DV48 but is currently out of action. We believe the engine needs a service and there is potentially as electrical fault with the ignition.

 

We need to tow the boat down the canal away from our current mooring. Are there any boaters who might be available to tow for a day rate or know of other better options?

 

Thanks!

[LadyG]

Why can't you get the boat going?

[Tony Brooks]

I think that is essentially a DV36 but with a turbocharger, the base engines are very reliable, but not sure about the turbo version.

 

We may be able to help you diagnose the fault, but if you don't want that, it is perfectly possible to pull boats on canals by hand. A long rope from the back run up the towpath to more or less level with the bow line. Then a short line from the bow to you. As you pull on the stern line the bow is likely to sheer away from you, so use the front line to keep the boat in line with the bank.

 

If you want to try DIY diagnosis, then describe what is or is not happening, and do you have and can you use a multimeter.

 

 

[dmr]

A slight problem is that most boats are not insured for this sort of towing, although many boaters are not aware of this so you might be ok.

A pre-arranged tow, even without payment, is a commercial type arrangement so needs specialist insurance.

However, if you can get yourself into some sort of crisis then most boats will be insured to rescue you to save life or the boat 😀.

[Jerra]

36 minutes ago, dmr said:

A slight problem is that most boats are not insured for this sort of towing, although many boaters are not aware of this so you might be ok.

A pre-arranged tow, even without payment, is a commercial type arrangement so needs specialist insurance.

However, if you can get yourself into some sort of crisis then most boats will be insured to rescue you to save life or the boat 😀.

I am probably being thicker than usual tonight but given the definition of commerce I have had all my life how can it be commercial if there is no payment?

[Sailbadthesinner]

1 hour ago, Jack 1Boom said:

electrical fault with the ignition.

I don't think so. It's a diesel.

[dmr]

14 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I am probably being thicker than usual tonight but given the definition of commerce I have had all my life how can it be commercial if there is no payment?

Perhaps I chose my wording badly, and its a half remembered conversation with a couple of insurance companies. By towing, even free, you are providing a service that a proper company would charge for. I think one company said towing is ok "to save life or propoerty, or when its customary to do so". You could argue that because boaters like to help each other out that towing is customary????

[LadyG]

6 minutes ago, Sailbadthesinner said:

I don't think so. It's a diesel.

Classic.

Though I have diesel and it requires a battery to kick it in to life, there is a key and what I assume is an ignition switch.

Edited November 24, 2024 by LadyG

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, Sailbadthesinner said:

I don't think so. It's a diesel.

 

Ignition is maybe not the right term for diesels but is often used. Maybe "starter motor not turning" is an ignition problem?.

I have only a tiny bit of experience with Bukh engines, but some engines have an injection pump that needs power to run.

[LadyG]

8 minutes ago, dmr said:

Perhaps I chose my wording badly, and its a half remembered conversation with a couple of insurance companies. By towing, even free, you are providing a service that a proper company would charge for. I think one company said towing is ok "to save life or propoerty, or when its customary to do so". You could argue that because boaters like to help each other out that towing is customary????

I remember when I arranged a tow I made sure there was no conversation about payment, I did buy them a nice bottle of malt, and paid for diesel plus a replacement fender , but not till it was all done and dusted.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, Jack 1Boom said:

Hello boaters!

 

We're new owners of a renovated lifeboat that sits on the Forth & Clyde canal at Applecross, Glasgow. The engine on the lifeboat is a BUKH DV48 but is currently out of action. We believe the engine needs a service and there is potentially as electrical fault with the ignition.

 

We need to tow the boat down the canal away from our current mooring. Are there any boaters who might be available to tow for a day rate or know of other better options?

 

Thanks!

Bow haul it?

How far you need to go?

 

[Francis Herne]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

Perhaps I chose my wording badly, and its a half remembered conversation with a couple of insurance companies. By towing, even free, you are providing a service that a proper company would charge for. I think one company said towing is ok "to save life or propoerty, or when its customary to do so". You could argue that because boaters like to help each other out that towing is customary????

I'd be interested to know if anyone's actually had a claim disputed on that basis and what the outcome was.

 

I read my insurance policy and conditions quite carefully when I wanted to tow something, without payment. They have nothing to say about towing.

The only possibly-relevant exclusions are:

• Hire, charter, or any other commercial activity.
• Wilful misconduct or acts of recklessness by you, or those to whom this policy extends

 

My guess is that their argument would be based on the definition of "pleasure vessel", and conversely that all other vessels are commercial, in The Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998:

Quote

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2771/regulation/2

 

“pleasure vessel" means–

any vessel which at the time it is being used is:

in the case of a vessel wholly owned by an individual or individuals, used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner; or [...various clauses irrelevant to privately-owned narrowboats]

 

I would argue that I enjoy towing other boats, and wouldn't do so without recompense if I didn't, but perhaps a court wouldn't see it that way. It hasn't stopped me doing it, anyway.

Edited November 25, 2024 by Francis Herne

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

11 minutes ago, Francis Herne said:

would argue that I enjoy towing other boats, and wouldn't do so for no recompense if I didn't, but perhaps a court wouldn't see it that way. It hasn't stopped me doing it, anyway.

I’d argue I’ve towed the boat to safety 🤷‍♀️,

(not on about a boat looking for a free ride to the next water point)

 

I’ve been towed and towed others enough times now that I know I don’t enjoy it anymore, it’s a right pain. But I’d like to think I’ll never refuse to tow someone out of trouble. 

[Alan de Enfield]

Although excluded by my insurance I have towed a boat away from danger on a couple of occasions (and on one occasion towed them all the way back to the marina.

 

Non-standard use of Your Craft
Unless it is noted in Your Schedule or amended by Endorsement You are not insured if You use Your Craft:
3.7.1 for hire or charter;
3.7.2 for anything except Your own private pleasure;
3.7.3 as a Houseboat;
3.7.4 outside the Cruising Limits shown in Your Schedule (however You may travel outside of Your Cruising Limits
if You are forced to by the weather, any form of danger or an order of Government or legal authority);
3.7.5 single handed for more than 18 hours in any 24 hour period unless Endorsement 16 is shown in Your Schedule;
3.7.6 single handed if Your Craft is more than 10 meters in length unless Endorsement 17 is shown in Your Schedule;
3.7.7 for In Commission use during the Laid Up period shown in Your Schedule;

[David Mack]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You are not insured if You use Your Craft:
3.7.1 for hire or charter;
3.7.2 for anything except Your own private pleasure;

Does that mean that a boater who records his boating on YouTube and makes a bit of pocket money in the process is in breach of his insurance?

[dmr]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Although excluded by my insurance I have towed a boat away from danger on a couple of occasions (and on one occasion towed them all the way back to the marina.

 

Non-standard use of Your Craft
Unless it is noted in Your Schedule or amended by Endorsement You are not insured if You use Your Craft:
3.7.1 for hire or charter;
3.7.2 for anything except Your own private pleasure;
3.7.3 as a Houseboat;
3.7.4 outside the Cruising Limits shown in Your Schedule (however You may travel outside of Your Cruising Limits
if You are forced to by the weather, any form of danger or an order of Government or legal authority);
3.7.5 single handed for more than 18 hours in any 24 hour period unless Endorsement 16 is shown in Your Schedule;
3.7.6 single handed if Your Craft is more than 10 meters in length unless Endorsement 17 is shown in Your Schedule;
3.7.7 for In Commission use during the Laid Up period shown in Your Schedule;

Single handing!   Thats another one that a lot of boaters probably don't notice, as most boats are over 10 metres.

 

I think I told my insurers that I don't do it routinely but will from time to time and know how to do it, and they were ok with that. I suspect that some inland policies are originally based on offshore policies and some of the exclusions are not really relevant.

 

I suspect a lot of inla

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

if we see someone in destress we’re obliged to help,

I reckon. 

 

[Stroudwater1]

25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Although excluded by my insurance I have towed a boat away from danger on a couple of occasions (and on one occasion towed them all the way back to the marina.

 

Non-standard use of Your Craft
Unless it is noted in Your Schedule or amended by Endorsement You are not insured if You use Your Craft:
3.7.1 for hire or charter;
3.7.2 for anything except Your own private pleasure;
3.7.3 as a Houseboat;
3.7.4 outside the Cruising Limits shown in Your Schedule (however You may travel outside of Your Cruising Limits
if You are forced to by the weather, any form of danger or an order of Government or legal authority);
3.7.5 single handed for more than 18 hours in any 24 hour period unless Endorsement 16 is shown in Your Schedule;
3.7.6 single handed if Your Craft is more than 10 meters in length unless Endorsement 17 is shown in Your Schedule;
3.7.7 for In Commission use during the Laid Up period shown in Your Schedule;

Well as @Francis Herne mentions, he enjoys towing so  he is towing at his own private pleasure? Therefore it seems he is covered. I’m glad I enjoy it too. 
 

 

[Francis Herne]

4 hours ago, Jack 1Boom said:

We need to tow the boat down the canal away from our current mooring. Are there any boaters who might be available to tow for a day rate or know of other better options?

I'm not aware of anyone based on the Forth & Clyde being active on the forum so you probably won't get any direct offers from here.

On the other hand several members here might be able to advise you on the engine problems,

 

I see you've already posted in at least one relevant Facebook group. There's a reply to this post that you haven't replied to publicly, perhaps you've done so by private message, mentioned just in case you didn't see it.

 

Bow-hauling as @Tony Brooks suggests is an option, or if you flag down passing boats (or put a sign out) one is likely to help you sooner or later.

 

Not all boats will be willing to tow, for the insurance reasons discussed above or otherwise.

Edited November 25, 2024 by Francis Herne

[Tony Brooks]

10 hours ago, dmr said:

 

Ignition is maybe not the right term for diesels but is often used. Maybe "starter motor not turning" is an ignition problem?.

I have only a tiny bit of experience with Bukh engines, but some engines have an injection pump that needs power to run.

 

If I am correct about it being a DV36 with a turbo, then although the Bosch rotary injection pump would have an energised to run stop solenoid when on a car, but on the Bukh it is an energised to stop solenoid, so that is probably unlikely.

 

There is a more complicated than normal diode & resistor pack that is involved with the stop solenoid operation, but at this time that would be way down my list of possibilities.

 

It is a direct-injection engine, so there are no glow plugs to worry about.

 

Being a diesel, the OP could try getting a length of cable and clipping one end onto the start battery positive, taking care not to touch any metal with the other ed, and firmly touch the other end to the SINGLE terminal with just one thin wire on it on the starter solenoid. that would bypass all the "ignition" circuit and hopefully, with decent batteries, the engine should start and run. To stop it do the same thing but touch the wire end to the terminal on the little hexagon stop solenoid screwed into the body of the injector pump or loosen all three LARGE nuts in the injector pipes.

 

Any bets on a flat start battery?

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

9 hours ago, David Mack said:

Does that mean that a boater who records his boating on YouTube and makes a bit of pocket money in the process is in breach of his insurance?

I have read that several traders have had their insurance terminated recently, cant remember the company involved 

[haggis]

I wonder if this boat has changed hands since the FB post a few months ago which was mentioned above. There will be NO passing boats as it looks like it is at Speirs Wharf which is a dead end and in any case there is little movement on the canal just now. The best bet would be to speak nicely to the Forth and Clyde Canal Society who might just have one of their boats in the Glasgow area in the run up to Christmas.

[Jonny P]

I would never try and dissuade someone from undertaking a short tow as a means of help to a stricken boat but don’t ever kid yourself that a standard insurance policy will be valid. Hence doing it routinely is unwise.

 

Towing is a single operation involving two (or more) boats and therefore it needs a single policy covering the operation and including provision for both boats; not only for the craft themselves but also for the liability which is a different level of risk to normal boating. That’s the bit in particular that I think some folk are overlooking above.
 

The person in charge - nominally the skipper of the tug - needs cover for three elements:

 

- direct insurance for the tug explicitly including for towing

 

- liability insurance directly pertaining to a boat under their control and under tow

 

- public liability insurance to cover towing operations

 

It’s also debatable that a standard licence is valid for towing. It’s not for a commercial operator.

Such insurance will cost you 3 to 4 times what a standard leisure policy costs.
 

In the case of a traditional pair I would take the term “customary” in the standard blurb quoted above to specifically be aimed at that particular instance. The boats will be owned by the same person and hence covered under one policy. Doubtless coal boats have specific commercial insurance similar to the above.

It’s also key to note that public liability insurance - for which CRT require cover of £2,000,000 for boat movers - does not cover the craft involved itself. Something to note if you ever employ a boat mover.

 

[haggis]

The last time the OP visited was Monday morning so I wonder if we can assume he got a tow. Or got bogged down in all the discussion about towing 🙂 

[Alan de Enfield]

My insurance has all sorts of 'you are not covered if.........' clauses.

 

 

Clause 2:1:10 I'd suggest is unknown to many people.

 

Could the 'Viii' sub clause include being towed, as the boat is under the control of the tug boat ?

 

 

Edited November 27, 2024 by Alan de Enfield