Engine starting trouble

[PaulGB]

Hi there,

Apologies for my Newbyness beforehand 🙂

I wonder if anyone could help me? I have recently acquired  a second hand boat and have it moored in a marina. I've been starting it every week and running it for an hour. Last weekend I fitted a Victron Shunt and whilst connecting it, a negative cable touched the hull and sparked. Now, when I try and start the engine, it clicks but doesn't turn over. The engine is a Lister Petter 3 and the starter battery is fully charged. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

P 🙂

[MtB]

Welcome Paul.

 

I'm no expert but this all sounds very odd. I'd expect the battery negative to be at the same potential as the hull so no spark should have happened. 

 

But given one did happen, I'd imagine a fuse somewhere has blown. Possibly a really big fuse supplying the starter motor.

 

Just posting really to provoke someone with more knowledge than me to quibble with what I wrote!

 

 

Edited November 18, 2024 by MtB
Correct the logical inconsistency!

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, MtB said:

Welcome Paul.

 

I'm no expert but this all sounds very odd. I'd expect the battery negative to be at the same potential as the hull so no spark should have happened. 

 

But given one did happen, I'd imagine a fuse somewhere has blown. Possibly a really big fuse supplying the starter motor.

 

Just posting really to provoke someone with more knowledge than me to quibble with what I wrote!

 

 

 

I can't and suspect there may be misidentification between positive and negative cables. However, the click suggests a fuse has not blown, otherwise there would be no click. Starter motor main feed and feed to the ignition switch to activate the starter are usually both connected to the main stater terminal. This may well be dirty or loose battery terminals on the start battery, but why were the start battery terminals being touched to fit a Victron shunt unless it was to fit a longer negative cable?

 

It could be simply a discharged start battery, so what is the voltage measured between the two battery posts (not terminal) WHEN THE STARTER IS BEING OPERATED. If below 10V then the battery may be flat or worn out. If no repeat on the terminals, if the voltage is low this time, then there is a bad connection between the terminal and battery post. Clean both to bright metal and reassemble using terminal dressing or Vaseline

Edited November 19, 2024 by Tony Brooks

[Eeyore]

A little advice for next time:

The camera fitted on most phones is not only useful for posting photos of your lunch on social media, it can also be used to take photos of things before you take them apart!

The spark might just be the normal reaction of an inverter being reconnected whilst still switched on? It being perfectly normal for there to be a (single) bond between battery negative and the hull.

Edited November 19, 2024 by Eeyore

[PaulGB]

Thanks all for the advice and the welcomes. 

@MtB  A blown fuse was my initial thought but @Tony Brooks makes a good point about the click meaning power is being supplied. Given @Eeyore's suggestion that the spark could have been generated by the inverter, I'm leaning towards a duff battery. When I took charged of the boat, I got talking to a chap who said he had lent a charger to the owner so they could get it started, so it's recently been flat. I did charge the battery, which is a Halfords HB019 95A last weekend, although maybe for not long enough. I was thinking I might get a turn or two of the engine, even if the battery was bad, or am I taking that experience from car engines. I'll try @Tony Brooks's suggestion of measuring the voltage whilst switching on, when I'm at the boat next. 

Just out of interest, here is a diagram that was left with the boat, there is a third cabin battery that's been added later.

 SScanner24111021480.pdf

 

[jonathanA]

A bit of a strange diagram to me. Although it's always a bit hard to understand someone elses thinking...

 

Thr alternator wiring doesn't make sense to me as o can't see where the main output is, their doesn't seem to be a thick alternator wire. And I don't understand the wires top right labelled  + starter  current and + cabon current both connected to the batt negs. Unless there is an ammeter or shunt somewhere... (even then they still don't make sense )

 

I'm assuming the box at the bottom with +ves are 4 isolators. If so worth checking the starter one, particularly if you switched it off whilst working on it.  The cheaper versions have a nasty habit of going high resistance when disturbed or failing for fun.

 

Personally I would draw my own diagram by tracing all the wires, that way you will understand it all. 

 

Finally is it a watercooled lister - a lpws engine ? If so there may be a plastic box on the side of the engine with a multiway electrical connector on the side. These can work loose or the pins can corrode up. Also there may be a resettable circuit breaker on the side which I think provides the feed to the control panel and start switch. Although I don't think you would get any lights or a click if that had tripped. 

 

Good luck

[Eeyore]

38 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Finally is it a watercooled lister - a lpws engine ? If so there may be a plastic box on the side of the engine with a multiway electrical connector on the side. These can work loose or the pins can corrode up. Also there may be a resettable circuit breaker on the side which I think provides the feed to the control panel and start switch. Although I don't think you would get any lights or a click if that had tripped. 

 

Good luck

The relays inside the box occasionally require wiggling/pushing back into their sockets. 

[Eeyore]

The drawing seems generally ok apart from the top righthand corner.

Separate isolation of the cabin batteries is a bit unusual.

An X-Alt external controller is fitted to the alternator; the split charge relay (simply labeled "relay" on the diagram) appears to be controlled by the X-Alt.

230v ac (at least originally) is from a Red-line rotary converter. You may find that this has been replaced at some point by an electronic inverter.

The wiring will doubtless require some age related maintenance/renewal.

Edited November 20, 2024 by Eeyore

[PaulGB]

WOW! You guys are good! I have to admit to being out of my depth where engines are concerned. I'm the kind of person who likes to understand how everything works and I keep staring into the engine bay at the rats nest of wiring and plumbing and thinking I'll never understand all that. I feel like ripping it all out and starting again 🙂 Who knew a humble narrowboat would be so complex. I'm sure I'll get there eventually and your input is definitely helping 👍 I don't even know if it's water or air cooled, I don't remember seeing a radiator - would it have one if it was? What's an X-alt and what does it do? So many questions and so little time! 🙂

[jonathanA]

Stick a photo or two of the engine on here and someone will identify it for sure. 

 

It's unlikely to have a radiator and their are several ways of arranging engine cooling with various pros and cons, so worth finding out what you have and how it works... 

[PaulGB]

Ok, I tried some things this weekend. I charged the starter battery again, for a good length of time and measured 12.7v some time after. It measured 11.5v with switched engaged. Weirdly, on leaving the key switched over for a few seconds, a spark sound was heard from somewhere. it did this on a couple of occasions. The engine bay had a lot of condensation over it it from being so cold, I'm not sure if this was the cause or not.

Needless to say, the engine didn't turn over.

 

Here is a picture of the engine -

 

 

 

Starter battery and cabin battery 1 -

 

 

Cabin battery 2 and 3 -

 

[Peugeot 106]

It’s a 3 cylinder Lister Petter Alpha either LPW3 or LPWS3. Probably LPWS3 as I  would expect a heater in the inlet manifold for a LPW3. Does it have 3 heaters in the cylinder - one for each cylinder?

As Jonathan says there is generally a plastic multiplug connecting the loom( bundle of wires). It is definitely worth finfpding this it’s like a black plastic square bulge in the main bundle of wires. Pull it apart and clean the  contacts (aerosol of  contact cleaner helps) and reassemble. They do give a lot of problems on these engines

[PaulGB]

Thanks for the ID 👍

30 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Does it have 3 heaters in the cylinder - one for each cylinder?

I couldn't tell you offhand, sorry. I look closer when I'm next there. I'll also check that multiplug out. 

 

[Steve56]

Don't know if it has any bearing on the problem, but a lot of the early Alpha marine engines were built as insulated earth engines as opposed to earth return. The engine you have there is definitely an early model.

[Tony Brooks]

6 hours ago, Steve56 said:

Don't know if it has any bearing on the problem, but a lot of the early Alpha marine engines were built as insulated earth engines as opposed to earth return. The engine you have there is definitely an early model.

 

And did they not have a complicated solenoid system to switch to being earth return while starting and then insulated return once running. Because of that I would want to inspect it and do some tests, but if you have to get someone in I fear it could be expensive because of the state of the wiring. I can't make head nor tail out of the wiring, so am afraid that I can't give any helpful advice. I note a red plastic key type master switch, so that is suspect. Try either bridging its two terminal with a hefty screwdriver, but o not let it touch any other metal - or put all the wires on one terminal as a test.

 

 

[Steve56]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

And did they not have a complicated solenoid system to switch to being earth return while starting and then insulated return once running. Because of that I would want to inspect it and do some tests, but if you have to get someone in I fear it could be expensive because of the state of the wiring. I can't make head nor tail out of the wiring, so am afraid that I can't give any helpful advice. I note a red plastic key type master switch, so that is suspect. Try either bridging its two terminal with a hefty screwdriver, but o not let it touch any other metal - or put all the wires on one terminal as a test.

 

 

You are quite right in what you say Tony. Originally the engine was fitted with Lucas Marine insulated alternator and starter motor. Then a relay was used to put a negative connection onto the engine casing to allow the heater plugs to work. Then slightly later Lucas stopped producing the insulated starter to suit the engine. So Lister used a 4ST solenoid to switch the negative onto the casing to allow for starting and heater plug operation. All the guage senders, and switches were two pole so when engine was running they all had there own negative with no connection to the engine block. This carried on for a while until Lister reverted to a more normal earth return system. Over the years many of these engines have been altered (bodged) in various ways by people with little understanding of how things work. Whether any of this has any bearing on the OP's problem, but I thought it may throw a little light for whoever is trying to sort it out.

10 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

It’s a 3 cylinder Lister Petter Alpha either LPW3 or LPWS3. Probably LPWS3 as I  would expect a heater in the inlet manifold for a LPW3. Does it have 3 heaters in the cylinder - one for each cylinder?

As Jonathan says there is generally a plastic multiplug connecting the loom( bundle of wires). It is definitely worth finfpding this it’s like a black plastic square bulge in the main bundle of wires. Pull it apart and clean the  contacts (aerosol of  contact cleaner helps) and reassemble. They do give a lot of problems on these engines

Can confirm by the photos that the engine is the LPWS3.

[PaulGB]

Thanks all.

The below video helps me get me see what I'm dealing with. Where would the multiplug be located?

As it was starting ok before I got my fingers on it, I think my next step is to undo everything I did fitting the shunt and see if it's still the same. 

I'm assuming now that the engine is air cooled. If so how does it not overheat in an enclosed bay?

 

 

[Stroudwater1]

Is there a stop pull out button that you have pulled out and not pushed back in? That stops it firing but IIRC the engine can usually turn over so it probably isn’t that.  
 

 

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, PaulGB said:

I'm assuming now that the engine is air cooled. If so how does it not overheat in an enclosed bay?

 

 

That engine is not in an engine bay, nor is it cooled by anything at all! He's just running it briefly to demonstrate it.

 

The water pump is the silver cone on the front and the drive belt is missing. The two large rubber hoses sticking up are probably flow and return water pipes to the skin tank. 

[mrsmelly]

33 minutes ago, PaulGB said:

Thanks all.

The below video helps me get me see what I'm dealing with. Where would the multiplug be located?

As it was starting ok before I got my fingers on it, I think my next step is to undo everything I did fitting the shunt and see if it's still the same. 

I'm assuming now that the engine is air cooled. If so how does it not overheat in an enclosed bay?

 

 

Your engine is water cooled.

[PaulGB]

1 hour ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Is there a stop pull out button that you have pulled out and not pushed back in? That stops it firing but IIRC the engine can usually turn over so it probably isn’t that.  

There is a pull out button, which on my boat you have to pull out to start and push in to stop.

 

So its a water cooled LPWS3, thanks all 👍

[Peugeot 106]

1 hour ago, PaulGB said:

Thanks all.

The below video helps me get me see what I'm dealing with. Where would the multiplug be located?

As it was starting ok before I got my fingers on it, I think my next step is to undo everything I did fitting the shunt and see if it's still the same. 

I'm assuming now that the engine is air cooled. If so how does it not overheat in an enclosed bay?

 

 

The multiplug isn’t shown there. There should be a bundle of wires going from the engine to the starter panel. Black and around 15mm dia. The multiplug we are talking about is on this bundle basically as a join between the wires off the engine and those off the panel. If you find it do undo it as the covers can make it look like it’s contacting whereas in reality it isn’t. DAMHIK. I taped mine up after cleaning all the contacts and it’s been fine ever since. I can’t remember the symptoms that alerted me to it but it could well have been that the engine wouldn’t start

You can get a down load of parts list and workshop manual off Sleeman Hawken if you can’t find one online 

[Eeyore]

1 hour ago, PaulGB said:

There is a pull out button, which on my boat you have to pull out to start and push in to stop.

Welcome to the "anything but standard" world of narrowboats; the stop cable works opposite to yours on the vast majority of similarly equiped boats!

[Peugeot 106]

4 hours ago, PaulGB said:

There is a pull out button, which on my boat you have to pull out to start and push in to stop.

 

So its a water cooled LPWS3, thanks all 👍

Are you sure? On my LPWS2 it is pull to stop I’m not sure how you could configure it the other way round. Are you trying to start it with the fuel stopped!? It could be a very simple error

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Are you sure? On my LPWS2 it is pull to stop I’m not sure how you could configure it the other way round. Are you trying to start it with the fuel stopped!? It could be a very simple error

 

I have the impression that those Listers normally have electric stops, so either you have a modification to use a stop cable. If the button is a switch, then it suggests that your stop solenoid is an energise to run solenoid, which is unusual. This might be because, for some reason, the solenoid has been changed for the wrong type or the engine spec may have been for something like an emergency generator for remote operation, where energise to run may be preferable.

 

Not sure that this helps the OP, but at least he now knows that he needs to check it.