Heavy Steering - Potential easy solution?

[RAB]

Whilst having a chat with a fellow boater, about how the better half finds steering far more difficult on our current boat, compared to the past one (same size boat/engine and boat builder) he mentioned dropping a 10p coin into the cup to raise the rudder assembly slightly, which he said would help! Has anyone else done something similar and does it / could it potentially work? (I appreciate not all boats are the same or react in the same way!). If it does work what could be the negatives?

Many thanks.

[Tonka]

8 minutes ago, RAB said:

Whilst having a chat with a fellow boater, about how the better half finds steering far more difficult on our current boat, compared to the past one (same size boat/engine and boat builder) he mentioned dropping a 10p coin into the cup to raise the rudder assembly slightly, which he said would help! Has anyone else done something similar and does it / could it potentially work? (I appreciate not all boats are the same or react in the same way!). If it does work what could be the negatives?

Many thanks.

You will only have 90p so can't use poundland

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, RAB said:

Whilst having a chat with a fellow boater, about how the better half finds steering far more difficult on our current boat, compared to the past one (same size boat/engine and boat builder) he mentioned dropping a 10p coin into the cup to raise the rudder assembly slightly, which he said would help! Has anyone else done something similar and does it / could it potentially work? (I appreciate not all boats are the same or react in the same way!). If it does work what could be the negatives?

Many thanks.

 

No, but not any modern coin because they tend to be plated steel. Use a large copper or brass washer or an old Half Penny or a full Penny if it fits the hole in the cup. they really are copper. That is Ds, not Ps

Edited November 18, 2024 by Tony Brooks

[IanD]

49 minutes ago, RAB said:

Whilst having a chat with a fellow boater, about how the better half finds steering far more difficult on our current boat, compared to the past one (same size boat/engine and boat builder) he mentioned dropping a 10p coin into the cup to raise the rudder assembly slightly, which he said would help! Has anyone else done something similar and does it / could it potentially work? (I appreciate not all boats are the same or react in the same way!). If it does work what could be the negatives?

Many thanks.

Is steering "difficult" because the rudder is stiff (lubrication needed?), needs constant pressure one way to stop it swinging over (may be bent?), or just heavy because it needs a lot of force to push it either way (short tiller, or too little balance in front of the pivot?).

 

If it's really bad, are you sure that it hasn't come out of the bearing on the skeg, maybe after being cilled?

Edited November 18, 2024 by IanD

[system 4-50]

I can make a copper disk if you know the size.  I have some sheet copper in stock.  How well it would work I have no idea.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

I can make a copper disk if you know the size.  I have some sheet copper in stock.  How well it would work I have no idea.

 

True, I thought it was to stop squeaks.

[Jon57]

19 minutes ago, RAB said:

Whilst having a chat with a fellow boater, about how the better half finds steering far more difficult on our current boat, compared to the past one (same size boat/engine and boat builder) he mentioned dropping a 10p coin into the cup to raise the rudder assembly slightly, which he said would help! Has anyone else done something similar and does it / could it potentially work? (I appreciate not all boats are the same or react in the same way!). If it does work what could be the negatives?

Many thanks.

I think you will find there will be no change 😁

[magnetman]

Is the tiller bar long enough? 

 

A bearing such as a copper disc could help but there might be something else. 

 

 

 

The title says 'easy solution' but if the Boat is in the water how are you going to get the coin into the cup? its not all that easy to do that. 

 

On dock it would be reasonably easy but rudders have a habit of being quite heavy. 

[ditchcrawler]

Maybe the new boat has less balance on the rudder, the area in front of the pivot point 

[blackrose]

53 minutes ago, IanD said:

Is steering "difficult" because the rudder is stiff (lubrication needed?), 

 

Lubrication of the bearing or bush, or lubrication between the rudder stock and tube? One of my neighbours once mentioned the latter and I couldn't help wondering what sort of lubrication would stay put with all the water pressure? Even copper grease would soon be gone. Besides the water itself should be an adequate lubricant there.

Edited November 18, 2024 by blackrose

[Phoenix_V]

1 hour ago, RAB said:

Whilst having a chat with a fellow boater, about how the better half finds steering far more difficult on our current boat, compared to the past one (same size boat/engine and boat builder) he mentioned dropping a 10p coin into the cup to raise the rudder assembly slightly, which he said would help! Has anyone else done something similar and does it / could it potentially work? (I appreciate not all boats are the same or react in the same way!). If it does work what could be the negatives?

Many thanks.

I know people do it, provides a sacrificial surface to protect the cup from wear and by acting as a bearing  might make steering a smidgin easier but  as others have said the amount of rudder forward of the pivot, the angle, length of tiller, any damage are the areas to investigate

[Tony Brooks]

Bent stock from cilling binding on the stock (tube)?

[blackrose]

Seized rudder stock due to lack of use? 😋

[cuthound]

The weighting of the steering is determined by:

 

a) the length of the tiller bar

 

b)the amount of rudder blade ahead and behind the tiller,

 

c) the rake (angle) of the tiller and rudder pivot points, and,

 

d) the friction in the bearings.

 

a) and b) are relatively easy to change, d) may also be easy to change if the bearings have not been maintained.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

I did see a new boat with a very stiff rudder, even when moored up. We released the top bearing to see if that was the problem but even with that free and able to spin round the rudder was tight. It turned out the fitter had put a plastic/nylon or something bush in the bottom cup. They had to take it back to the builder to be sorted.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I did see a new boat with a very stiff rudder, even when moored up. We released the top bearing to see if that was the problem but even with that free and able to spin round the rudder was tight. It turned out the fitter had put a plastic/nylon or something bush in the bottom cup. They had to take it back to the builder to be sorted.

 

Ye, nylon seems to swell when it gets wet, as we found in the early days of pump out with a nylon cap screwed into the pump out fitting.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Some questions for @RAB. Is it hard to swing the tiller with the boat moored up and the prop out of gear? Is it harder to swing the tiller when under way in gear, or out of gear? The answers will help narrow down what might be needed.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

My other half found steering her old boat hard(Trad stern), not through the stiffness of rudder shaft, but because of the height of tiller. Obviously the previous owner must of been quite tall, a quick stand position remeasure and about 6” removed from the swan neck, problem sorted, no more aching shoulder/arm and far easier and more pleasurable to steer. 
 

[magnetman]

Yes it was interesting to note that the OP said their 'better half' was finding it more difficult. I suppose the question would be whether the OP themselves are finding it more difficult as well. 

 

 

 

 

Its not implausible there is an ageing component in this. I will be careful about making other assumptions regarding fitness of persons to handle vessels. 

 

 

[Tonka]

14 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

My other half found steering her old boat hard(Trad stern), not through the stiffness of rudder shaft, but because of the height of tiller. Obviously the previous owner must of been quite tall, a quick stand position remeasure and about 6” removed from the swan neck, problem sorted, no more aching shoulder/arm and far easier and more pleasurable to steer. 
 

Doesn't the trad cabin limit the lower height of the tiller

[magnetman]

11 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Doesn't the trad cabin limit the lower height of the tiller

 

Yes if the bar reaches over the hatch like it is supposed to. I was wondering if the bar was not long enough. This can happen sometimes for example if the bar was lost and replaced with one slightly different or if someone found the 'correct length' bar was obstructing getting on and off. 

 

 

 

 

[RAB]

Sorry for not responding earlier with updates. Thanks for all the responses.

The steering is generally heavier on this boat for everyone. At no, or low, speeds it's not a problem and all seems ok, but with increased speed 2 1/2 to 3 mph it gets quite heavy with any slight turn (an increase in required force with prop speed is understandable). It's just that it's a lot more than previous boat and makes it hard/uncomfortable for my partner. We do now have a platform to stand on which definately makes it a more comfortable experience and easier for both of us, although you need to remember to duck even lower under low bridges 🤣.

I understand all the design issues etc but was just wondering about the advice on lifting the assembly slightly. Probably won't try it as doesn't seem worth the hassle. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

17 minutes ago, RAB said:

Sorry for not responding earlier with updates. Thanks for all the responses.

The steering is generally heavier on this boat for everyone. At no, or low, speeds it's not a problem and all seems ok, but with increased speed 2 1/2 to 3 mph it gets quite heavy with any slight turn (an increase in required force with prop speed is understandable). It's just that it's a lot more than previous boat and makes it hard/uncomfortable for my partner. We do now have a platform to stand on which definately makes it a more comfortable experience and easier for both of us, although you need to remember to duck even lower under low bridges 🤣.

I understand all the design issues etc but was just wondering about the advice on lifting the assembly slightly. Probably won't try it as doesn't seem worth the hassle. 

Does sound like a design problem with the proportion of rudder blade ahead and behind the pivot point being the most likely issue. I don't see putting a washer in the bottom cup fixing that. One more silly question, how long is the tiller (horizontally). Longer gives more leverage, but can interfere with the cabin top if the bar isn't high enough off the deck, see @magnetman's post above.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Does sound like a design problem with the proportion of rudder blade ahead and behind the pivot point being the most likely issue. I don't see putting a washer in the bottom cup fixing that. One more silly question, how long is the tiller (horizontally). Longer gives more leverage, but can interfere with the cabin top if the bar isn't high enough off the deck, see @magnetman's post above.

 

Quite a lot of boats have too little balance in front of the pivot and are heavy to steer as a result, and this gets worse as more power is used to go faster. Apart from a longer tiller (if there's space), the only solution is to modify the rudder by welding an extra plate onto the front, which is an out-of-the-water job -- always assuming there's enough clearance to the prop to do this, which there may not be...

[BEngo]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

welding an extra plate onto the front, which is an out-of-the-water job --

Depending on the rudder set up it may well be possible to take the rudder out whilst in the water,  weld a bit more balance on and put the rudder back..  Not easy on Liverpool boats though.

 

Before planning to add extra balance dive the weed hatch and check the gap between the prop and the leading edge of the rudder.  Not maintaining clearance is a Bad Idea.

N