Blue MDPE or hosepipe?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

What about thin bore metal tubing ? 

 

 

 

The flow rate will be miniscule. Whether that actually matters depends on what the pipe is required to do. The OP is silent on the matter...

 

 

[magnetman]

 

Sort of like trickle charging a battery really where the battery itself can deliver a high current when needed. 

 

 

[MtB]

Just now, magnetman said:

 

Sort of like trickle charging a battery really where the battery itself can deliver a high current when needed. 

 

 

 

The pipe is for filling a battery??!!!!!

 

 

[magnetman]

Just now, MtB said:

 

The flow rate will be miniscule. Whether that actually matters depends on what the pipe is required to do. The OP is silent on the matter...

 

 

 

Looking back at the OP he says its a 25m line of hose needed. 

 

So how much water would come out of an 8mm pipe? 100ml a minute? If it was that much then that is 6 litres per hour = 144 litres a day...

 

 

[MtB]

Just now, magnetman said:

 

Looking back at the OP he says its a 25m line of hose needed. 

 

So how much water would come out of an 8mm pipe? 100ml a minute? If it was that much then that is 6 litres per hour = 144 litres a day...

 

 

Pathetic flow rate for say, a shower! 

 

 

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

The pipe is for filling a battery??!!!!!

 

 

No. The water tank and pump is the equivalent of the battery and can supply the load. The thin bore tube is the trickle charger. 

 

Very similar in principle to a bowthruster arrangement charger by a trickle charger. 

 

 

Just now, MtB said:

 

Pathetic flow rate for say, a shower! 

 

 

The shower is fed by the pump drawing water from the onboard tank! 

 

He's looking at filling a tank not providing a direct feed to the services on the Boat. 

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, magnetman said:

No. The water tank and pump is the equivalent of the battery and can supply the load. The thin bore tube is the trickle charger. 

 

Very similar in principle to a bowthruster arrangement charger by a trickle charger. 

 

 

Think of solar charging all day and using the Microwave at tea time 

[Alan de Enfield]

This Information and Guidance Note gives advice to
owners, operators and users of inland and coastal
marinas on suitable methods for filling boats
(pleasure craft and similar small boats) with water
to be used for drinking and domestic purposes. By
using one of the methods described, marina operators
will fulfil their legal duty to avoid contamination of

the mains water supplies and will ensure the safety
of drinking water supplies in marinas and their
surroundings.

 

There a number of alternative methods, the simplest being ................

 

 

Note the requiremenst for double check valves and the max size hose is 22mm ID

 

Edited October 27, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 Whether that actually matters depends on what the pipe is required to do. The OP is silent on the matter...

 

 

He has already stated in the thread that he is not looking for a direct mains water connection to the Boat. He wants to regularly fill the onboard water tank while the Boat is moored in a fixed location. 

[jim mitchell]

1 hour ago, jonathanA said:

Yea that would be a nightmare, for starters the pipe would need to be buried at no less than 750mm depth and be sterilised before connection (would need certifying, chucking a bit of Milton down wouldn't cut it ... )

Not strictly true but permission from the water undertaker (supply company) is required before installation if it is laid less then 750mm down -  and may have 'reasonable' restrictions applied.  

That restiction (so the watrer undertaker said  ) is primarily to avoid it being  damaged  unknowingly by subsequent construction style works . 

Extensions to outbuildings from my house was readily  permitted at 500mm.

 

Incidently for the OP the minimum bend radius that 20mm MDPE should have is 500mm (based on very cold weather conditions ) that require 25 x O/D of the pipe.

 

[blackrose]

10 hours ago, magnetman said:

 

Garden Hose Degradation

As garden hoses age, they can develop porosity due to various factors. Here are some key points:

• Material degradation: Over time, the rubber or PVC material of the hose can break down, leading to microscopic cracks and holes. This allows water to seep through the hose, making it porous.
• UV exposure: Prolonged exposure to direct sunlight can cause the hose’s material to degrade, increasing its porosity.
• Chemical reactions: The hose’s material can react with chemicals in the water, such as chlorine or minerals, leading to degradation and porosity.
• Physical stress: Repeated bending, twisting, or kinking of the hose can cause micro-cracks, making it more prone to porosity.

 

(AI generated search result)

 

Thanks but I wasn't thinking of using garden hose. 

10 hours ago, Onewheeler said:

The blue mdpe going to our mooring has been exposed to sunlight for at least twenty years where it rises to the tap. No sign of degradation at all.

 

Ok thanks.

10 hours ago, jonathanA said:

Echo what jonesthenuke says  blue mdpe from builders merchants or even screwfix is pretty cheap.  It's the stop taps that are eye wateringly expensive (IMO). My experience of even good quality hose pipe is its doesnt weather well and I can't see it coping with freezing well, whereas mdpe will usually cope with freezing and may occasionally blow a fitting off. If you are worried about uv then just sleeve the blue with some cheap 1 1/4 waste pipe or whatever you can find, where its not buried.

 

Just to add that one issue with none buried water pipe is that when exposed to summer sun the water can get hot enough for legionares or other nasties to grow, so bear that in mind and draw some water off if it's been stood for a while in the pipe.

 

Thanks, after reading previous posts I'm not too worried about UV degradation and will use blue MDPE if I can manage to do it with no low level fittings because the mooring floods.

9 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Is hosepipe ok for the 6 or 8 bar pressures that mains pressure sometimes climbs to at times of low demand? 

 

 

 

Have you ever had a problem with hosepipe rupturing when connected to mains pressure? I've known fittings to pop out but only when not properly connected.

9 hours ago, David Mack said:

What is this pipe connected to at the supply end? I suspect that to be fully legal your pipework should comply with the water supply regulations, and that will mean using mdpe pipe, and not hosepipe.

 

At the supply end it would be connected to a (retractable?) 20m hose to get it over the dirt road to the water point, so the 25m pipe in the ground at the mooring isn't connected to the mains permanently 

8 hours ago, magnetman said:

What about thin bore metal tubing ? 

 

 

Arrange for a continuous flow. If the Boat is lived on then the water consumption would probably be fairly predictable so one could just have the tank constantly fed. 

 

Maybe I am overthinking it but routing would be easier with thinner stuff. Flow resistance would be interesting. 

 

 

For example if one were to connect an 8mm pipe to mains supply and route ut for 250m would water come out the end or would it never get there. I think it would get there but I never tried it. 

 

Just because it would be a really slow flow isn't that relevant because the demand on the Boat is not for mains water it is for tank water delivered by a pump. 

 

Yes I agree you're overthinking it.

8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

The flow rate will be miniscule. Whether that actually matters depends on what the pipe is required to do. The OP is silent on the matter...

 

Sorry, I do need sleep occasionally. The pipe is required to get across the mooring from the boat closer to the tap which is shared by 3 boats. There will still be a 20m gap from the end of the pipe nearest to the tap which will be connected with a retractable hose as and when I want to fill the tank. I was trying to avoid having to use a 45m hose to cover the whole distance by having fixed buried pipe or hose going across the mooring and I'd have a tap next to the boat.

7 hours ago, jim mitchell said:

Incidently for the OP the minimum bend radius that 20mm MDPE should have is 500mm (based on very cold weather conditions ) that require 25 x O/D of the pipe.

 

 

Thanks, as I thought, that makes it difficult to route a single length of MDPE pipe across the mooring without fittings. So I'm still leaning towards blue food grade hose pipe. From what I've read it's pretty resistant to environmental degradation.

Edited October 28, 2024 by blackrose

[Momac]

13 hours ago, blackrose said:

I need to lay about 25m of water pipe at my new mooring. Would I be better off with 20mm blue MDPE water pipe or blue food grade hosepipe? Most of it will be buried but not all of it and I read that blue MDPE isn't UV resistant.

 

The mooring floods so I was leaning towards hosepipe as it can be a single length which goes up vertically at each end so no chance of river water entering through any joints.

 

The risk here is of contamination finding its way into the water supply. Some ground contamination may leach through some pipe materials . This could affect you and others.

So the installation must comply with regulations.

 

At the marina here we are on a pontoon. The tap on the pontoon is near my boat which is probably about 20 metres off the shore. The pipe is under the pontoon walkway but it must see some sun.  On some occasions in summer , the water from the pontoon tap can get quite warm.  So I would always routinely run off some water until it runs cold before putting any water in the boats tank.

So I would say any above ground hose  or pipe for a permanent connection regardless of material  should be lagged to reduce solar gain as well as to offer frost protection.

Buried water supply pipes  should be 450mm deep in the ground for frost protection

 

 

 

 

 

 

[David Mack]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This Information and Guidance Note gives advice to
owners, operators and users of inland and coastal
marinas on suitable methods for filling boats
(pleasure craft and similar small boats) with water
to be used for drinking and domestic purposes. By
using one of the methods described, marina operators
will fulfil their legal duty to avoid contamination of

the mains water supplies and will ensure the safety
of drinking water supplies in marinas and their
surroundings.

 

There a number of alternative methods, the simplest being ................

 

 

Note the requiremenst for double check valves and the max size hose is 22mm ID

 

And also note the requirement that unattended hoses must be removed. In other words, this is not suitable for a permanent connection.

[jim mitchell]

FWIW,   using a "hosepipe" retractable or otherwise to cross a dirt road , then connecting to some buried pipe and then "I am guessing " to some more hose to actually fill the boat tank - will be a lot of effort to do safely - you would  have at least 4 connections for contamination to enter the system. and unless you actually own the land between tap and boat potentially a legal plate full - if it goes wrong at any time.

 

I would focus instead on using a mounted drum of food grade hose that can easily be pulled out and rewound (self draining in the process) - perhaps mounted on a ' temporary' pallet type platform near the boat with a shorter length of hose to finally connect to the boat.

 

I use an old red  fire hose reel mounted on a simple framework with a rotating handle bolted to the side near the rim  and replaced the red rubber hose with food grade reinforced hose, it holds a full 50m length easily it takes me only a couple of minutes to run out and connect up a little longer to rewind , but its also easy to flush through, the ends can be capped with blanks  (sterilised) if you desire.

 

If the river is flooding   pick the reel up and store on board

 

[BEngo]

IIRC, if the pipe is, or may be immersed during a flood, say, the water regulations require that a barrier grade mdpe pipe is used. Again, IIRC this is blue but has a coloured stripe on it.

 

The water regs are really concerned about possible  contamination of the water supply, and seem to assume that the normal laws of physics do not always apply, particularly with regard to outside  taps and external visible pipework.

 

N

[magnetman]

7 minutes ago, BEngo said:

IIRC, if the pipe is, or may be immersed during a flood, say, the water regulations require that a barrier grade mdpe pipe is used. Again, IIRC this is blue but has a coloured stripe on it.

 

The water regs are really concerned about possible  contamination of the water supply, and seem to assume that the normal laws of physics do not always apply, particularly with regard to outside  taps and external visible pipework.

 

N

Yes when I was occupying a residential mooring a letter arrived in the wrong letterbox with a threat of legal action against on of the neighbouring Boats because they had a hose permanently connected.

 

The water board do take this kind of thing very seriously.

I was told by someone that occasionally maintenance work at pumping stations can cause a negative pressure to occur at the faucet.

 

Don't know if it is true.

[Alan de Enfield]

44 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And also note the requirement that unattended hoses must be removed. In other words, this is not suitable for a permanent connection.

 

 

You are correct : I made no mention of permanent connection as that is not what was being asked - It is illegal (WRAS) to have a boat permanently connected to a mains water supply.

[Momac]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

- It is illegal (WRAS) to have a boat permanently connected to a mains water supply.

There must be a legal way to make a mains water connection. eg I can think or a few floating pubs/restaurants that must have a mains connection. Also there are no doubt floating homes that do the same ? 

 

 

[jonathanA]

@blackrose I bet you wish you'd never asked...

 

Fwiw i think your blue mdpe plan plus hose pipe seems pragmatic for your situation and I'd probably do that or maybe the the 50 m reel thing if it were me. 

 

 

[blackrose]

6 hours ago, jim mitchell said:

FWIW,   using a "hosepipe" retractable or otherwise to cross a dirt road , then connecting to some buried pipe and then "I am guessing " to some more hose to actually fill the boat tank - will be a lot of effort to do safely - you would  have at least 4 connections for contamination to enter the system. and unless you actually own the land between tap and boat potentially a legal plate full - if it goes wrong at any time.

 

That's why I proposed a single length of pipe with all connections well above flood water level. That would be easier to achieve with hose rather than rigid pipe.

2 hours ago, jonathanA said:

@blackrose I bet you wish you'd never asked...

 

Fwiw i think your blue mdpe plan plus hose pipe seems pragmatic for your situation and I'd probably do that or maybe the the 50 m reel thing if it were me. 

 

 😂Yes, an ostensibly simple thing does seem to be getting ever more complicated.

 

I could probably dig the 25m of blue MDPE pipe 450mm underground in a single section with no joints, but it will have to emerge at some point to rise up to the pontoon.

 

It shouldn't surprise me, but all this stuff about following the regulations does puzzle me somewhat. It's not a residential mooring and there must literally be thousands of boats in marinas all across the country with non-food grade garden hoses permanently attached to taps, some of them going across land or dangling in the water between boat and bank. Apart from burying my pipe (or just having it trailing across the grass) case may be) what's the difference between that and what I'm proposing?

[Momac]

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

......there must literally be thousands of boats in marinas all across the country with non-food grade garden hoses permanently attached to taps, some of them going across land or dangling in the water between boat and bank. 

That doesn't make them compliant with standards. Where I keep my boat we keep our hosepipes on our boats . But I dare say some folks do leave a hose reel out. 

8 minutes ago, blackrose said:

It's not a residential mooring 

I don't think being residential or otherwise  is relevant.

 

[David Mack]

20 minutes ago, blackrose said:

It shouldn't surprise me, but all this stuff about following the regulations does puzzle me somewhat. It's not a residential mooring and there must literally be thousands of boats in marinas all across the country with non-food grade garden hoses permanently attached to taps, some of them going across land or dangling in the water between boat and bank.

It's not about whether the mooring is residential, or rules for boats in marinas. Its about protecting the public water supply for the safety of all users.

[magnetman]

Just now, David Mack said:

It's not about whether the mooring is residential, or rules for boats in marinas. Its about protecting the public water supply for the safety of all users.

Yes I think there was an incident with a garden pond so it applies to houses as well. More or less impossible to enforce of course. 

It is interesting to consider the implications for the land owner if there was a contamination incident leading to issues with public health. 

 

Is it the installer who is responsible or the land owner. I would think the land owner. 

 

Quite recently the Environment Agency removed hoses from bulk water supplies and fitted silly non return overflow lab tap hardware which made taps almost unusable. I think it was an instruction from the WRAS as mentioned above which caused this to happen. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Momac said:

That doesn't make them compliant with standards. Where I keep my boat we keep our hosepipes on our boats . But I dare say some folks do leave a hose reel out. 

I don't think being residential or otherwise  is relevant.

 

 

The CRT put red stickers on their (residential and non residential) mooring services bollards instructing Boat owners to always remove the hose after use. 

 

If self installing from a main feed remote from the mooring site then perhaps liability changes. 

It still seems more likely the land owner would be liable but this particular mooring appears to be rather interesting as they will not make the pontoons safe or install a water supply. 

 

Seems odd. 

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

It's not about whether the mooring is residential, or rules for boats in marinas. Its about protecting the public water supply for the safety of all users.

 

The public water supply would be disconnected from whatever I install every time I stop filling up - presumably the same as you do with your hosepipe.

2 hours ago, Momac said:

That doesn't make them compliant with standards. Where I keep my boat we keep our hosepipes on our boats . But I dare say some folks do leave a hose reel out. 

 

 

Some people leave them out, some people keep them on their boats, some people leave them in filthy engine rooms on boats in contact with grease or oil or in filthy sheds. None of this sounds compliant with the standards if we're being picky.

 

I think I'm going to try to do a one-piece blue MDPE pipe installation buried 450mm underground.

Edited October 28, 2024 by blackrose

[rogher]

I have moorings at the end of my garden. I installed a garden tap some way from the canal but have a 100m hose on a cart which spans the difference. We use a filter for drinking water, so feel that we're safe enough with that. We keep the hose out of sunlight and flush it through before filling from it (no idea how long one should flush for but do it until it 'feels right'). As for "food grade", I'm not bothered as I have no intention to eat it!

My garden tap was installed using the hard blue stuff. At mains pressure I feel that things are more likely to escape from it than enter. In your case, I'd put a tap/valve/stopper at the inlet end to prevent stuff getting into the run whilst not in use, then give it a good flush before using it. My memory is fading and mind less agile as I get older but I don't believe that's anything to do with what I might have picked-up in the water.

Be wary of freezing conditions, though. If it freezes-up, you may need to find other ways of getting it to the boat - and then have to check for leaks. I think bacteria need sunlight and air to breed. Lagging the exposed parts could be a good move.