Thames lock Brentford closed

[magnetman]

CRT have closed Thames lock apparently after taking advice from the EA. 

 

Bit odd this as it is a tideway safe haven and also PRN status both sides of the lock. That lock is not supposed to be closed unless it breaks. 

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/notices/29649-thames-lock-closure

 

The implication here is that Thames lock will simply be closed when there are red boards out on the Thames. This is a really dody situation because loads of people use the lock for other purposes. Are the CRT attempting to extinguish the PRN on the Brent or is this just incompetence ? 

[David Mack]

I think they have cancelled all passages between Brentford and EA waters at Teddington. But in theory passages to/from the tidal Thames downstream should still be available. Are Limehouse and Bow Locks entrances open?

[magnetman]

Comment on the Thames Boaters fb group. 

 

 

I'm not that sure how it would work if Boats were allowed from one direction but not the other. What would happen if someone went from Teddington and took a turn somewhere on a buoy or Brentford dock pontoon then turned up at Thames lock to coincide with timings from Limehouse? 

 

I think it is actually closed. Which is dodgy in my opinion. 

 

 

I was talking to a long term former Teddington resident lock keeper about it yesterday and he said he had never heard of this happening before. 

[Mike Adams]

I think the IWA should have another go at this outrageous behavior. As there is a PRN both sides of the lock it should be contested.

In the 1980's the lock, as I remember, was open from 4am until 10pm without booking and there was always a resident lockeeper on duty who would let you through on demand. The fact that the non tidal Thames is on Red boards is irrelevant. I think it is still classed as a commercial waterway so CaRT are well out of order.

[magnetman]

I think this is quite a serious situation. There is history here of the CRT attempting to extinguish the PRN on the Brent. Back in the day there used to be a free flow tidal gate just upstream of Thames lock which allowed passage from the Thames to the Brent without the need for a lock. This was blocked off by the BW Board at some stage. 

 

I learned a bit about the area from a couple of trips to the pub with the late Nigel Moore. He knew what he was on about and took the BW Board and the CRT to task about these things.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, Mike Adams said:

I think the IWA should have another go at this outrageous behavior. As there is a PRN both sides of the lock it should be contested.

In the 1980's the lock, as I remember, was open from 4am until 10pm without booking and there was always a resident lockeeper on duty who would let you through on demand. The fact that the non tidal Thames is on Red boards is irrelevant. I think it is still classed as a commercial waterway so CaRT are well out of order.

Has anyone mentioned it to the IWA, are they even aware its been closed.

Quote

 

 

[David Mack]

I assume its about money. With the non tidal Thames on red boards there would be few passages anyway. So they have decided they aren't going to have staff on standby to operate the lock for any remaining craft.

[Scholar Gypsy]

I have written to CRT about all this again, I spent a lot of time earlier in the year on the new booking arrangements for Limehouse and Brentford.  IWA are aware.

 

Part of the issue in October (see below) is that I think they have switched to winter operating hours from October 1st, while it should be from November 1st to Feb 28th.  

 

During the winter period, the intersection between  operating hours (0800-1600 in winter) and tide times mean that Limehouse can only be used on about half the days, and even more restricted for transits between Limehouse and Brentford. 

 

Use it or lose it.

[dixi188]

What is a PRN please?

[Scholar Gypsy]

Just now, dixi188 said:

What is a PRN please?

Public right of navigation. A rather complex legal issue, I think it is fair to say....

[magnetman]

Broadly speaking it means that the permission to navigate upon the water is already given and that the navigation authority does not have the power to allow or disallow navigation. 

 

The PRN on canals was extinguished by an act of parliament. Someone will know. I think it was the 1968 Transport Act. 

 

So on canals one does need a licence however on rivers with PRN status it is a registration. The navigation authority may be authorised by statute to require that you register and pay to use your vessel but they are not in a position to give permission because it has already been given by the PRN. 

 

It has already been accepted in Moore v BWB that the river Brent between Thames lock and the gauging locks is a PRN waterway. 

 

 

https://vlex.co.uk/vid/moore-v-british-waterways-793707865

"The claimant had care of 4 vessels which were moored for several years on a stretch of the GUC. They were moored alongside riparian land, which, for the purposes of this action, BWB accepts is in the possession or occupation of the claimant. Unlike the rest of the GUC, that particular part of the canal has a tidal element and is subject to a public right of navigation."

 

 

Edited October 8, 2024 by magnetman

[magnetman]

Lock now open again. Given the fact the River is likely to be all on reds again shortly will they close it again? 

 

Sometimes it can stay red boards for months other times there are lots of gaps with yellow boards. 

 

I wonder if it was some form of incompetence or if there is in fact a plan to close Thames lock when the locks down the bottom end are on red boards. 

[magnetman]

So now obviously the River itself is on red boards again from St Johns to Teddington. Quite a lot of land water to dispose of. Is Thames lock at Brentford therefore closed due to EA advice and dangerous conditions ? 

 

 

 

I wonder if this was related to fluvial flow. Sometimes if there is a lot of land water coming down it can negate the incoming tide down towards Putney so canal Boats could potentially get washed downstream past the entrance to Brent creek and not have adequate power to get back against the fluvial flow. 

I came up from Limehouse to Teddington last March and there was about 50 cumecs going through the Jubilee plus the normal 150 ish through Maidenhead. This did cause a major fluvial flow issue and I had to stop at Putney on a buoy. The next incoming tide was wiped out by the fluvial flow by the time I got to Richmond and the half lock barrier was continuously open. 

River level going up due to tidal effect but flow going outward due to the fluvial flow effect. It was an interesting trip. Not nice if going the other way with a maximum speed of 5mph. 

 

 

I wonder if the PLA also have something to say about Brent creek and Thames lock. 

[Scholar Gypsy]

10 hours ago, magnetman said:

So now obviously the River itself is on red boards again from St Johns to Teddington. Quite a lot of land water to dispose of. Is Thames lock at Brentford therefore closed due to EA advice and dangerous conditions ? 

 

 

 

I wonder if this was related to fluvial flow. Sometimes if there is a lot of land water coming down it can negate the incoming tide down towards Putney so canal Boats could potentially get washed downstream past the entrance to Brent creek and not have adequate power to get back against the fluvial flow. 

I came up from Limehouse to Teddington last March and there was about 50 cumecs going through the Jubilee plus the normal 150 ish through Maidenhead. This did cause a major fluvial flow issue and I had to stop at Putney on a buoy. The next incoming tide was wiped out by the fluvial flow by the time I got to Richmond and the half lock barrier was continuously open. 

River level going up due to tidal effect but flow going outward due to the fluvial flow effect. It was an interesting trip. Not nice if going the other way with a maximum speed of 5mph. 

 

 

I wonder if the PLA also have something to say about Brent creek and Thames lock. 

I believe this action by CRT was due to fresh water flows on the River Brent, which was making the High St bridge unnavigable.  The conditions on the tidal and non-tidal Thames are not really anything to do with CRT.
 

This graph shows the effect of the fluvial flow, comparing predictions and actuals. There is a similar effect at Chelsea (the next gauge downstream) but much less pronounced.

 

With strong fluvial flow, I've only done a Teddington to Limehouse transit (blog below, including a log, max speed 7.3 kts).  We set off over 2 hrs before HW (in order to be confident of getting to Limehouse before it got dark!) and the flow was outbound pretty much all the time, with slack water near Putney.  So if I was doing Teddington to Brentford today, I would set off an hour before high tide, and get to Brentford at high tide (probably having to wait a bit to get under the High St Bridge).

https://scholargypsy.org.uk/2019/11/12/tideway-trip-from-teddington-to-limehouse/

If your comment about the PLA refers to their possible views on the existence of safe havens, in brief I don't think there's a lot of mileage in that argument. it's a much stronger argument at Limehouse, but we've not got anywhere with it.

 

[Mike Adams]

18 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I believe this action by CRT was due to fresh water flows on the River Brent, which was making the High St bridge unnavigable.  The conditions on the tidal and non-tidal Thames are not really anything to do with CRT.
 

It may be the case that the high street bridge is difficult to navigate  but allowing boats to get off the river and moor in relatively safe conditions above Thames Lock is important. Not all boats will be coming from the non tidal Thames they could be coming from the Medway or even France as has been my situation in the past. I have never known the Brent to get up that much that you can't get under the bridge at some point in the tidal cycle. This is all typical cover your back nonsense. We used to go up and down the Thames on Red Boards and thought nothing of it except be a bit more cautious near the weirs. If you were coming downstream the lockeepers (When they had some) would phone ahead and have the lock ready and open so you could go straight in at full tilt.

[magnetman]

48 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I believe this action by CRT was due to fresh water flows on the River Brent, which was making the High St bridge unnavigable.  The conditions on the tidal and non-tidal Thames are not really anything to do with CRT.
 

 

 

Well they seem to think so 

 

From the CRT stoppage notice 

 

Following on from the advice issued by the Environment Agency we've made the difficult decision to cancel existing bookings and close off any further bookings for the forseeable until the strong flows and currents from the adverse weather conditions have subsided.

As detailed on their website "When these red boards are displayed, the Environment Agency advises users of all boats not to navigate. The strong flows make it difficult and dangerous."
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/river-thames-current-river-conditions

 

 

It was the conditions on the River which caused the closure of the lock. The River is on red boards all over today so presumably Thames lock should be closed again. 

 

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

17 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

It may be the case that the high street bridge is difficult to navigate  but allowing boats to get off the river and moor in relatively safe conditions above Thames Lock is important. Not all boats will be coming from the non tidal Thames they could be coming from the Medway or even France as has been my situation in the past. I have never known the Brent to get up that much that you can't get under the bridge at some point in the tidal cycle. This is all typical cover your back nonsense. We used to go up and down the Thames on Red Boards and thought nothing of it except be a bit more cautious near the weirs. If you were coming downstream the lockeepers (When they had some) would phone ahead and have the lock ready and open so you could go straight in at full tilt.

I agree - there's something odd going on here. I think there were a couple of days in late September when Brentford high street was not passable, but that was very unusual. 

[magnetman]

The CRT were using conditions on the non tidal Thames as a reason to close their lock. 

 

That is what they have said. It seems to me this may just be an incompetence problem but there could be a bigger picture.

 

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The CRT were using conditions on the non tidal Thames as a reason to close their lock. 

 

That is what they have said. It seems to me this may just be an incompetence problem but there could be a bigger picture.

 

 

 

Thanks for digging out the stoppage notice - I should have checked that again...   I am aware of someone who has a booking on Saturday for a Teddington to Brentford transit, I will be interested to see if they get cancelled by CRT.  [Their boat is currently in Shepperton and I suspect  (despite Mike's comments above) they won't move it on red boards.]