Electrician around Watford / electrical questions

[Landsil]

Hello everyone,

My wife and I are few months away from getting a narrowboat and I'm trying to fill the gaps in my knowledge.

I have enough disjointed knowledge about electrics to know what I want but be sure I need a professional to take care of that.

 

I'm looking for a boat electrician who is willing to answer some questions to help figure out/design together electrical system for the boat and sense check assumptions I will be making.

I would plan to later hire same person to actually put it all in place. But if you are happy to help even though you are far away that's also great.

My preference would be to keep it to DM's instead involving a public thread. Will be sharing what actually got put in place and why obviously when all is done.

 

Example subjects:

1. 5000VA inverter seems reasonable long term?

2. Does it make sense to have 24/48v battery setup if I will need another converter to 12v for lights and basic stuff? or will it all work form 48v? Replacing 

3. What things to buy so that later I can easily add more batteries / panels to the system without need to for a new charger or BMS or something.

4. Dedicated power generator (in the engine bay) vs just running engine.

5. I'm aware of some constrains regarding distances between I think charger and batteries, I guess close batteries can have longer cables?

6. Various questions about how important is parasitic drain from loads of LED controllers/switches for the lights and stuff.

 

and many more

[Tony Brooks]

I will go along with your desire to get answers but to avoid discussing this, so others may benefit, so no comment.

[Landsil]

Hi Tony,

As I said I would obviously share the conclusions for benefit of others.

I want to have a conversation with one person, not with everyone who feels like adding opinion to the thread.

[matty40s]

That's me out then.

 

Canal World DISCUSSION Forum...

[Landsil]

I feel like this makes my point?

2nd person in a row coming only to say they aren't going to help?

[Tony Brooks]

I would also point out that there are inaccuracies in your original posts (length of charging cables) and that the mention of BMS kind of implies a lithium bank. I would suggest that there is more hard won experience of lithium systems here than you may get from a single boat electrician.

Just now, Landsil said:

I feel like this makes my point?

2nd person in a row coming only to say they aren't going to help?

 

No, it makes the point that you give the impression that you are intent on abusing the ethos of the forum, so people react accordingly. In any case, as I have just outlined above, your knowledge is not all you think it is and to get the BEST recommendation, more information is needed, but you have made it clear that you do not want to discuss it.

 

If you really are only a few months away from getting a narrowboat, rather than commissioning a new one and waiting a couple of years, then the voltage question is already answered, unless you have lots of spare cash to buy the higher voltage equipment. I have yet to see 48V engine electrics in volume use.

[Landsil]

Those are examples of things to talk about, I have only most basic knowledge about specific things that doesn't connect very well with broader picture, hence my desire to pay a professional to do thing for me.

eg. BMS was only mentioned because that's the device used in systems I happen to see videos about, I do want to have LiFePO4 batteries in place though, that's correct.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Landsil said:

Those are examples of things to talk about, I have only most basic knowledge about specific things that doesn't connect very well with broader picture, hence my desire to pay a professional to do thing for me.

eg. BMS was only mentioned because that's the device used in systems I happen to see videos about, I do want to have LiFePO4 batteries in place though, that's correct.

 

So you are asking about electricians with a good knowledge of LFP battery systems. That may well narrow the field considerably. If this is a second hand boat, then converting it properly is likely to be expensive/very expensive. I think that you will find the 48V tends to apply to electric powered boats, not normal domestic use.

[ditchcrawler]

15 minutes ago, Landsil said:

I feel like this makes my point?

2nd person in a row coming only to say they aren't going to help?

Thats because its a discussion forum ands you dont want it discussed

8 minutes ago, Landsil said:

Those are examples of things to talk about, I have only most basic knowledge about specific things that doesn't connect very well with broader picture, hence my desire to pay a professional to do thing for me.

eg. BMS was only mentioned because that's the device used in systems I happen to see videos about, I do want to have LiFePO4 batteries in place though, that's correct.

So is this a New Build boat or a second hand one that you intend to completely refit?

[IanD]

27 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I would also point out that there are inaccuracies in your original posts (length of charging cables) and that the mention of BMS kind of implies a lithium bank. I would suggest that there is more hard won experience of lithium systems here than you may get from a single boat electrician.

 

No, it makes the point that you give the impression that you are intent on abusing the ethos of the forum, so people react accordingly. In any case, as I have just outlined above, your knowledge is not all you think it is and to get the BEST recommendation, more information is needed, but you have made it clear that you do not want to discuss it.

 

If you really are only a few months away from getting a narrowboat, rather than commissioning a new one and waiting a couple of years, then the voltage question is already answered, unless you have lots of spare cash to buy the higher voltage equipment. I have yet to see 48V engine electrics in volume use.

 

AFAIK nobody in the canal world offers them. You can get 24V engines setups with some manufacturers (Beta Marine for example) but these are a non-standard extra cost option.

 

24V/48V systems are easier and cheaper when high power levels are concerned, which is why electric/hybrid boats use 48V -- a few new-build conventional boats use 24V but the advantages are smaller and the hassle bigger so most stick to 12V.

 

On a diesel boat there's little point trying to run a 48V engine setup from the main battery bank, it's a lot easier and cheaper to keep a 12V engine setup with a standard starter battery and trickle-charge this from the 24V/48V bank, to which all the charging sources (inverter/solar/shore/alternator) connect.

[Landsil]

2nd hand boat that will will be upgraded

 

what is "expensive/very expensive" ?

I can see prices of specific items I expect I will need to put in place all together. I don't have 12k to drop on amazing new generator but probably don't need it.

Victron inverter is under 1k, Galvanic Isolator if boat is missing one us under £500, DC/DC converters and solar chargers are similar so over few months I should be able to get the bits with some accounting for all the accessories like cables and fuses and stuff plus work that I have no idea who much people charge for.

 

I did the bill of parts for OldNick fully electric and core components were around £40k+ at the time, that is no something I can afford but I plan to buy quality parts that can build towards that.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Landsil said:

1. 5000VA inverter seems reasonable long term?

Considerably bigger than most boats have. What are you going to be running that needs that level of power? And since drawing power at that level will quickly deplete your batteries, how do you propose to recharge them?

[Landsil]

5000VA is 4500 Watts, right?

I don't plan to use that much now but I also don't want to trip anything in future.

I see 1200VA referenced a lot but that's only 1000W so if I turn on a microwave that I see people have it's likely to trip things, cattle is 2000W I think?

I don't intend to use either of those until my battery bank is mostly done but price difference isn't worth getting smaller one and having to upgrade later. Especially if I won't feel comfortable doing it myself.

 

For charging I expect engine for start as sound dampening will cost less than panels but after that frame panels.

I have to update my notes but I think 2KW of 5-6 frame panels may fit on the length we look for.

With UK efficiency it should cover us well enough.

[Tony Brooks]

33 minutes ago, Landsil said:

what is "expensive/very expensive" ?

 

It could be several thousand if you include the necessary LFP batteries. Then it depends upon exactly how you intend to control the charge, if you are keeping an LA start battery and if so is this to be totally operate, charging wise, from the LFP bank, and so on. The size of the inverter suggests that you might be tying with combining both alternator outputs on a twin alternator boat. That raises further issues.

 

If you follow the advice in some of those videos and do a cheap job you may find in a year or two, when the BSS and insurance industry have got to grips with lithium batteries, that you need to spend even more to make it compliant. Then the elephant in the room that could prove equally expensive when you come to sell if using a broker, and that is on a post 1998 boat the work you have done might need a post construction assessment to ensure it still complies with the RCD/RCR. At present the chances of anything bad happening, until you try to sell, is extremely slim, but you need to be aware of it. I do wonder is an electrician who stands to a nice fat fee would even bother to talk about this. Warning - I just know that some here will try to say that you do not need to worry about the PCA and the RCR/RCD, but others have found differently when selling.

 

I would suggest that you use the forum to inform yourself before talking to an electrician, your initial post screams newby ripe for the picking to a less scrupulous electrician. Identify areas you are not sure about and ask a question about each one individually.

 

I will start by telling you that there are no electrical reasons for limiting the length of charging cables, but the longer they are, the more copper stands they need to avoid losing voltage along the length. This means that costs and the space to run thick cables may limit the length, but if you have to have a long run then you just have to pay or find another way - like using a mains charge closer to the batteries (mains chargers run at 10 times the voltage of a 24 volt system so to do the same job the supply cables can be 10 times smaller because the current they will carry will be 10 times smaller.

14 minutes ago, Landsil said:

For charging I expect engine for start as sound dampening will cost less than panels but after that frame panels.

I have to update my notes but I think 2KW of 5-6 frame panels may fit on the length we look for.

With UK efficiency it should cover us well enough.

 

Remember that when charging lithium batteries, the alternators on the engine will almost certainly need derating to ensure they do not burn themselves out. That is unless you invest in one that is capable of running at full output for hours on end. that won't be cheap.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Landsil said:

5000VA is 4500 Watts, right?

I don't plan to use that much now but I also don't want to trip anything in future.

I see 1200VA referenced a lot but that's only 1000W so if I turn on a microwave that I see people have it's likely to trip things, cattle is 2000W I think?

I don't intend to use either of those until my battery bank is mostly done but price difference isn't worth getting smaller one and having to upgrade later. Especially if I won't feel comfortable doing it myself.

 

For charging I expect engine for start as sound dampening will cost less than panels but after that frame panels.

I have to update my notes but I think 2KW of 5-6 frame panels may fit on the length we look for.

With UK efficiency it should cover us well enough.

A 5000VA inverter will draw more than 400A from 12V batteries -- you're going to need lots of them, and check maximum current (limited by BMS) if they're LFP. LA are definitely not recommended at these power levels, their capacity drops like a stone at high dischage (and you can only use half of it to start off with).

 

The big issue is where the power to recharge them comes from in the first place. Solar is great but don't over-estimate how much energy you'll actually get out of them in real life, especially if you're cruising round the system. I have just over 2kWp of (flat-mounted) panels, and the solar yield calculators predict 7kWh/day average during the summer but maybe 2kWh in winter. I've seen that in good conditions, anything up to 10kWh/day in summer on a cloudless day (or half that on a cloudy one) when in the full sun -- but when you're actually cruising you're not always in full sun, and neither are moorings so the best *average* I saw during a complete summer trip was about 4kWh/day, only 60% of prediction. The loss is less in winter where there's a lot less direct sunlight, I saw about 90% of the predicted figure.

 

So unless you're plugged in at a home mooring (e.g. marina) you'll need another power source, possibly in summer but definitely in winter. If you want to run the engine for this, with a 24V LFP bank you'll need 24V alternators on the engine and an external controller for them (e.g. Wakespeed/Zeus, at least £700). The alternative is a generator providing 230Vac input to the inverter/charger, and these are not cheap (if inbuilt) and you have to find space to fit them.

 

Having "home-quality" mains power on a boat is neither cheap or simple to do, you really need to consider how much power you actually need to run stuff.

[Landsil]

51 minutes ago, IanD said:

A 5000VA inverter will draw more than 400A from 12V batteries -- you're going to need lots of them, and check maximum current (limited by BMS) if they're LFP. LA are definitely not recommended at these power levels, their capacity drops like a stone at high dischage (and you can only use half of it to start off with).

But that's only an issue if I actually pull that much, right? I'm assuming that aside from overpaying 5000VA works like 1200VA if I only power a fridge, internet and laptops from 240V, correct?

Batteries I'm initially looking at have Recommend Discharge Current under 200A and ideally we will have 10 but starting with 2.

 

I guess it will be simpler if I put full info in one place.

Ideally we would have loads on money to get electric boat, that's not the case sadly but where possible we plan to get quality parts that maybe let us swap to electric engine in few years time.

 

1. Boat will have some engine, I have low hopes about how well it charge anything, similarly low how about what we can keep from electrics.

I expect I will need sound dampening and unknown amount of money on new alternator (or something, no idea)

2. Plan is to get full understanding what is a bare minimum to put in place so that later on new batteries and panels can be added without having to change much. eg. I know/think charging voltage has to be matched, no idea if I can just buy correct charger and it will handle anything from 2 panels to 6 panels

3. I'm willing to over spec on things to make sure everything is done properly and safely, as mentioned, wouldn't want to find out down the line I'm using unsafe wire gauge or something like that before some sale or certification.

4. I don't actually plan to use that much power day-to-day.

Would be nice category has things like electric cattle and maybe microwave few minutes at the time. Only power hungry device I would actually love to be able to use few hours at the time is a gamin console at average 200W and portable washing machine as 360W

5. Most of my calculations are pessimistic, eg. new Victron with prices rounding up, same for power honestly.

 

From there things I expect to have to buy are (example based on latest notes):

Galvanic Isolator VDI-32 (£300)

Inverter Victron 5000VA (£1000)

Batteries x10 12V 200Ah (£360x10) (GoKWh would be great, have to check latest reviews before any decision though, they make a lot of changes)

Power Control? Cerbo GX (£300)

Solar Control Victron SmartSolar (£300)

Solar Eurener Zebra 375W All Black Half-Cut Mono x5 (£180x5)

230V charger? for the shore power / future generator? (£300)

 

misc cables and fuses and clamps, bus bars, glands, probably more then I think but let's say £1000 total

Someone who comes, says this isn't going to explode, wires and mounts, explains what to do to add another battery/solar (not even a vague idea, never had to hire any election)

Edited October 7, 2024 by Landsil

[Tony Brooks]

I can't see any alternator controller, the Cerbo looks like a communication centre and display. As someone said above, the Cerbo allows things to communicate with an external alternator controller like the Wakespeed - about £750 in the UK according to Google.

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Landsil said:

 

I'm looking for a boat electrician who is willing to answer some questions to help figure out/design together electrical system for the boat and sense check assumptions I will be making.

I would plan to later hire same person to actually put it all in place. But if you are happy to help even though you are far away that's also great.

My preference would be to keep it to DM's instead involving a public thread.

Most boat electricians earn their living by installing stuff plus the markup on equipment they supply. I don't think there are many out there who offer a consulting service - advice for a fee without also supplying and installing stuff.  And no professional is going to give you anything beyond generic advice for free, until you have committed to spending more.

In contrast there are several folk on the forum who will freely give of their knowledge and experience. The downside is that you have to sort out the knowledgeable from the bullsh*tters ( but then how do you know your paid professional is one of the former, not the latter), and none of the advice comes with any guarantee (and any guarantee from a pro is largely unenforceable anyway!). You also have to accept that there are sometimes personality differences between forum members that can deteriorate into personal attacks that achieve nothing and alienate other readers. So better if you try to rise above any negativity, answer any follow on questions or requests for information as best you can, and accept that sometimes the answers you get may not be what you want to hear.

[IanD]

53 minutes ago, Landsil said:

But that's only an issue if I actually pull that much, right? I'm assuming that aside from overpaying 5000VA works like 1200VA if I only power a fridge, internet and laptops from 240V, correct?

Batteries I'm initially looking at have Recommend Discharge Current under 200A and ideally we will have 10 but starting with 2.

 

I guess it will be simpler if I put full info in one place.

Ideally we would have loads on money to get electric boat, that's not the case sadly but where possible we plan to get quality parts that maybe let us swap to electric engine in few years time.

 

1. Boat will have some engine, I have low hopes about how well it charge anything, similarly low how about what we can keep from electrics.

I expect I will need sound dampening and unknown amount of money on new alternator (or something, no idea)

2. Plan is to get full understanding what is a bare minimum to put in place so that later on new batteries and panels can be added without having to change much. eg. I know/think charging voltage has to be matched, no idea if I can just buy correct charger and it will handle anything from 2 panels to 6 panels

3. I'm willing to over spec on things to make sure everything is done properly and safely, as mentioned, wouldn't want to find out down the line I'm using unsafe wire gauge or something like that before some sale or certification.

4. I don't actually plan to use that much power day-to-day.

Would be nice category has things like electric cattle and maybe microwave few minutes at the time. Only power hungry device I would actually love to be able to use few hours at the time is a gamin console at average 200W and portable washing machine as 360W

5. Most of my calculations are pessimistic, eg. new Victron with prices rounding up, same for power honestly.

 

From there things I expect to have to buy are (example based on latest notes):

Galvanic Isolator VDI-32 (£300)

Inverter Victron 5000VA (£1000)

Batteries x10 12V 200Ah (£360x10) (GoKWh would be great, have to check latest reviews before any decision though, they make a lot of changes)

Power Control? Cerbo GX (£300)

Solar Control Victron SmartSolar (£300)

Solar Eurener Zebra 375W All Black Half-Cut Mono x5 (£180x5)

230V charger? for the shore power / future generator? (£300)

 

misc cables and fuses and clamps, bus bars, glands, probably more then I think but let's say £1000 total

Someone who comes, says this isn't going to explode, wires and mounts, explains what to do to add another battery/solar (not even a vague idea, never had to hire any election)

If you're going to plug into shoreline sometimes (or a generator) you'll need an inverter charger like the Multiplus II, the 12/5000 is £2150 not £1000.

 

There are plenty of dodgy LFP battery suppliers around, if pending that much money I'd go with someone like Fogstar, 12V/2000Ah will cost you about £4500.

[Landsil]

46 minutes ago, IanD said:

If you're going to plug into shoreline sometimes (or a generator) you'll need an inverter charger like the Multiplus II, the 12/5000 is £2150 not £1000.

Do I understand correctly that MultiPlus-II combines in one device all power inputs for charging I may have plus replaces inverter?

I will read up on Victron ESS system, description of device implies that but their other materials suggest it needs bunch of external controllers.

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Landsil said:

Would be nice category has things like electric cattle and maybe microwave few minutes at the time.

A typical domestic kettle draws about 2kW, so your 5kVA inverter is still rather big. Most folk manage perfectly well with a kettle on the gas stove. Is this to be a gas-free boat?

[GUMPY]

We swapped out 3kW kettle for a 1kW one, means we can have other things on at the same time. 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Landsil said:

Do I understand correctly that MultiPlus-II combines in one device all power inputs for charging I may have plus replaces inverter?

I will read up on Victron ESS system, description of device implies that but their other materials suggest it needs bunch of external controllers.

Normal solution is to use a Cerbo GX as the system controller (which can do a lot of other things too, dealing with solar and generator and BMS and tanks and sensors and...) and a display like a Touch 50 for the UI.

 

The Multiplus-II only has one AC input; if you want two (e.g. shoreline and generator) without an external transfer switch, a Quattro (or Quattro II, cheaper and lower quiescent power) is the best solution.

 

But the only Quattro-II are 5000VA 24V (EUR2366) and 5000VA 48V (EUR1543), there's no 12V version -- the Quattro 12/5000 is EUR3167... 😞 

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/media/pricelist/Pricelist_Victron__EUR_C_2024-Q4_web.pdf

 

17 minutes ago, David Mack said:

A typical domestic kettle draws about 2kW, so your 5kVA inverter is still rather big. Most folk manage perfectly well with a kettle on the gas stove. Is this to be a gas-free boat?

That's true, but a 5kVA inverter will have considerably lower loss at 2kW load than a 3kVA one, and only dissipates about 5W more quiescent power.

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Output-rating-operating-temperature-and-efficiency.pdf

 

A 5kVA inverter isn't big enough for a gas-free (electric cooking) boat...

 

(which also means spending one hell of a lot of money -- several thousand pounds -- just to get rid of gas...)

Edited October 7, 2024 by IanD

[Bod]

The boat you are interested in, what does it have at present?

Whats there, does it all work?

Replacing Lead Acid batteries as a matter of course, for a new to you boat is quite normal.  Replacing perfectly good equipment, means less funds for boating.

How is the boat used at present?

Regular cruiseing, or sat almost unused for months/years, at a time?

In regular use it may not need much spending, in order to have a perfectly good boat.

 

Bod.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, GUMPY said:

We swapped out 3kW kettle for a 1kW one, means we can have other things on at the same time. 

Same here