9 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I don't really understand why it's so controversial. Of course as the critics of the proposal cite, there could be extreme cases in which people with terminal illnesses feel like they're a burden to others and feel pressured into taking their own life. However, surely it's not beyond the wit of the medical profession to come up with a mechanism to prevent that, such a 3 independent doctors including a psychiatrist interviewing the person and perhaps their family before signing off the assisted suicide.

You have a lot more faith in Psychiatrists than I have. Trust me trying to get a decision of any sort out of a Psychiatrist is like pulling teeth.

12 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

You have a lot more faith in Psychiatrists than I have. Trust me trying to get a decision of any sort out of a Psychiatrist is like pulling teeth.

Is that extra difficult because it's well-nigh impossible to find (NHS) dentists nowadays? 😉 

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Is that extra difficult because it's well-nigh impossible to find (NHS) dentists nowadays? 😉 

Yup, I used to get to meet them on a regular basis whenever their patients in a Psychiatric Hospital covered by my Station used to attack one another. The only decision I ever got out of them was the date of the next meeting

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The only decision I ever got out of them was the date of the next meeting

 

Ah, senior decision makers then! 

 

Did they ever bother themselves to speak to the patient?

Let's hope it's not made compulsory! 

On 09/10/2024 at 23:13, Graham Davis said:

A word of warning about that.
Whilst it might apply as a hospital in-patient, if you are attended by a Paramedic, First Responder or a similar person then if the conditions are correct then they will instigate CPR and if available use an AED. 
Even in hospital it has and can be overruled if the staff have not been made fully aware.

Roger has just been taken into hospital. again. The ambulance crew discussed Roger's statement of wishes in depth. It is difficult for them as they see a confused. frail. old man because he is ill. The day before he was fit. active old man who enjoyed life. He has brought covid back from holiday. 

 

 

It will be interesting to see if Justin Wilby accepts the invitation to discuss with Leadbetter. He’s currently doing the slippery slope argument, which seeks equivalence for hypothetical abuse as opposed to actual current ‘abuse’ in real life pain. But he is aligned to other religious leaders in asserting their right to impose their beliefs over others, unto death itself. Pain is gods will, it seems, from the fighting rearguard of declining but still real church power. 
I don’t find much real human empathy nor kindness in this sanctimony. 
But then this is a religion whose core icon and devotional focus is human sacrifice made holy. It’s right there, in plain sight. The aztecs would understand completely. 

Its is "interesting" that stories about the deaths at the Gosport War memorial Hospital have started to reappear in the news recently.

33 minutes ago, Tigerr said:

It will be interesting to see if Justin Wilby accepts the invitation to discuss with Leadbetter. He’s currently doing the slippery slope argument, which seeks equivalence for hypothetical abuse as opposed to actual current ‘abuse’ in real life pain. But he is aligned to other religious leaders in asserting their right to impose their beliefs over others, unto death itself. Pain is gods will, it seems, from the fighting rearguard of declining but still real church power. 
I don’t find much real human empathy nor kindness in this sanctimony. 
But then this is a religion whose core icon and devotional focus is human sacrifice made holy. It’s right there, in plain sight. The aztecs would understand completely. 

Yes, I've been following the discussions/protests about the bill. What comes across to me is that they almost seem to be debating suicide, which is already perfectly legal, all that this bill is intended to do is to is to ensure that those wishing to commit suicide can do so in the least traumatic manner.

 

The comment of Dr Gordon Macdonald of the Care not Killing group,".... it sends a dog-whistle message to the terminally ill, vulnerable, elderly and disabled people, especially those on low or fixed incomes, that their lives are worth less than others......."(https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/16/england-and-wales-assisted-dying-bill-formally-launched-in-house-of-commons) doesn't really bring much to the debate since some of the poorest in society, the homeless, are already killing themselves at an increasing rates (https://museumofhomelessness.org/news/new-research-shows-1474-homeless-people-died-in-2023-a-mounting-national-crisis-revealed). His comment, in my view, is almost a 'dog whistle' in itself.

 

I'm kind of hoping that that debate will become more about the reality of those who wish to commit suicide due to constant suffering but cannot rather than, as it seems to be doing at the moment, which is focussing on suicide itself, which is already legal.

Edited October 17, 20241 yr by Wanderer Vagabond

IF it's true that "everyone and everything is God pretending to be everyone and everything" as some believe, it does rather put a different light on things. 

 

Tin hat - incoming. 

Edited October 17, 20241 yr by nb Innisfree

48 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The comment of Dr Gordon Macdonald of the Care not Killing group,".... it sends a dog-whistle message to the terminally ill, vulnerable, elderly and disabled people, especially those on low or fixed incomes, that their lives are worth less than others....

 

I very much disagree with that, the sentiment is far worse. It should read it sends a dog-whistle message to the terminally ill, vulnerable, elderly and disabled people, especially those on low or fixed incomes, that their lives are worth less than animals.

 

Try keeping an animal in pain or inflicting pain on and animal and see you get on if the RSPCA hear about it. For [people, I would include mental pain as well.

1 hour ago, nb Innisfree said:

IF it's true that "everyone and everything is God pretending to be everyone and everything" as some believe, it does rather put a different light on things. 

 

Tin hat - incoming. 

Except that it isn't 'true' it is simply a belief, and people are fully entitled to their beliefs so long as they don't impose them upon others.

 

Of course IF your quote were true then it would also mean that those asking for assisted dying, following the logic, are also 'God' so their views should be taken as 'gospel' as well (complicated innit?)

35 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Except that it isn't 'true' it is simply a belief, and people are fully entitled to their beliefs so long as they don't impose them upon others.

 

Of course IF your quote were true then it would also mean that those asking for assisted dying, following the logic, are also 'God' so their views should be taken as 'gospel' as well (complicated innit?)

Very

2 hours ago, nb Innisfree said:

IF it's true that "everyone and everything is God pretending to be everyone and everything" as some believe, it does rather put a different light on things. 

 

Tin hat - incoming. 

I think what might put a different light on such beliefs, might be a shred of evidence brought to the table. Otherwise, we are back to disbelieving thousands of gods in favour of one. Or not even that, just a sort of ‘feeling about things’. Which oddly enough is where we are with the current cruelty. 

5 minutes ago, Tigerr said:

I think what might put a different light on such beliefs, might be a shred of evidence brought to the table. Otherwise, we are back to disbelieving thousands of gods in favour of one. Or not even that, just a sort of ‘feeling about things’. Which oddly enough is where we are with the current cruelty. 

 

As an atheist, I've always found that a good way to stop religious fundamentalists in their tracks -- for example, Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on the door on a Saturday morning -- is to point out that our belief systems are almost identical; out of at least 2500 gods, I don't believe in 2500 of them and they don't believe in 2499 of them... 😉 

Edited October 17, 20241 yr by IanD

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

As an atheist, I've always found that a good way to stop religious fundamentalists in their tracks -- for example, Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on the door on a Saturday morning -- is to point out that our belief systems are almost identical; out of at least 2500 gods, I don't believe in 2500 of them and they don't believe in 2499 of them... 😉 

 

I just tell them I am a satanist...

 

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I very much disagree with that, the sentiment is far worse. It should read it sends a dog-whistle message to the terminally ill, vulnerable, elderly and disabled people, especially those on low or fixed incomes, that their lives are worth less than animals.

 

Try keeping an animal in pain or inflicting pain on and animal and see you get on if the RSPCA hear about it. For [people, I would include mental pain as well.

It was the times when I've had dogs put down that convinced me of the merit of assisted suicide. Even on that front there are two sides. Back in 1992 I had an Old English Sheepdog put down due to untreatable illness and to be honest the Vet totally screwed it up. She just injected the entire dose of toxin into my dog in one hit and I could see his whole body tense up as she did so. I felt guilty for a long while afterwards since after a faithful life the least I could have done for him was find a competent Vet. 2008 there was a repeat scenario, old Newfoundland dog with untreatable illness but on this occasion the fatal dose when in slowly and gently (from a completely different Vet, never used the first one again) and he simply went off to sleep. That was how it should be done.

 

I'm following the debates/arguments that are appearing, it does seem that the more religious are trying to push for the status quo to remain. The one (amongst many) that I am unconvinced by is from the Hospice sector who are saying that what is needed is better palliative care and more Hospices. Ethically and morally they are almost certainly right, but realistically is that going to happen? We really are talking a zero-sum scenario here so if we are to use the NHS finite budget to pay for more hospices and better palliative care, what are we going to have to abandon to get it? I would guess that those waiting for cancer treatment in the hope of saving their lives would prefer a limited budget to be spent on trying to save those who might live rather than on those who are already dying. In a Utopian world the money would be found for both, but this ain't Utopia.

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

I just tell them I am a satanist...

 

Does that work? I would have thought that gives the buggers grounds for hope that you at least believe in a 'fallen Angel' so they simply hope to 'convert' you. They are on stonier ground with those of us who tell them it is all a load of bullox

Edited October 17, 20241 yr by Wanderer Vagabond

13 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Does that work? I would have thought that gives the buggers grounds for hope that you at least believe in a 'fallen Angel' so they simply hope to 'convert' you. They are on stonier ground with those of us who tell them it is all a load of bullox

 

They can't get away fast enough...

 

Mind you if they did stay it could be fun trying to convert them...

 

I used to tie them in knots, even arguing among themselves.

I've spent a lifetime trying to find an answer then a spotty youth comes along and tells you what it's all about, if he/she doesn't know them they'll consult an "elder"... oh right, OK... 

If The Witnesses call on a Saturday I don my yarmulke and ask them not to interupt my Sabbath.

31 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

If The Witnesses call on a Saturday I don my yarmulke and ask them not to interupt my Sabbath.

When my youngest daughter was being Christened they arrived in the middle of the party.  So we sent the vicar (a personal friend) to answer the door.

The witnesss are, by any measure, heretics.

Their perverted and patently false narrative, is an affront to the established Christian law.

Different times, they'd be burned at the stake like Cathars, protestants, or catholics for that matter. That's why they founded in utah, far from the clutches of vatican, or the protestant witch-finders. 

All this sounds ridiculous, until we recognise that these churches don't consider pain in the temporal (real) life as important when balanced against the eternal (imagined) life to come. How could they, and remain true?

They really did burn those people to save their eternal souls.

And that is precisely the basis of the problem we have today. They'd burn you, your loved one, to save a soul and save themselves from damnation. It's real. They'd do it with love. 

Humans are entirely capable of allowing others to literally burn to death, with complete piety and a sense of righteous personal ecstasy and validation. And those people have largely got control of the ethical/legal process of your death. 

It's a genuine problem, right here, right now, and it involves each of us very directly as we face our own mortality. 

Edited October 19, 20241 yr by Tigerr

56 minutes ago, Tigerr said:

The witnesss are, by any measure, heretics.

Their perverted and patently false narrative, is an affront to the established Christian law.

Different times, they'd be burned at the stake like Cathars, protestants, or catholics for that matter. That's why they founded in utah, far from the clutches of vatican, or the protestant witch-finders. 

All this sounds ridiculous, until we recognise that these churches don't consider pain in the temporal (real) life as important when balanced against the eternal (imagined) life to come. How could they, and remain true?

They really did burn those people to save their eternal souls.

And that is precisely the basis of the problem we have today. They'd burn you, your loved one, to save a soul and save themselves from damnation. It's real. They'd do it with love. 

Humans are entirely capable of allowing others to literally burn to death, with complete piety and a sense of righteous personal ecstasy and validation. And those people have largely got control of the ethical/legal process of your death. 

It's a genuine problem, right here, right now, and it involves each of us very directly as we face our own mortality. 

Whilst agreeing with your general principal, are you sure you're not confusing Jehovah's Witnesses with Mormons (both of which are irritating God-botherers). I'm willing to be corrected but I think that the JW's started out in Pennsylvania whilst it was the Mormons who seem to run Utah.

16 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Whilst agreeing with your general principal, are you sure you're not confusing Jehovah's Witnesses with Mormons (both of which are irritating God-botherers). I'm willing to be corrected but I think that the JW's started out in Pennsylvania whilst it was the Mormons who seem to run Utah.

You are right. I was thinking of Mormons. 
The Book of Mormon, is the funniest play I ever saw. 

50 minutes ago, Tigerr said:

The Book of Mormon, is the funniest play I ever saw. 

Indeed. I saw it in Leeds and when we came out of the theatre there were real Mormon missionaries outside, trying to persuade the theatregoers of their cause. I don't think they were having much luck!