Boat Safety Scheme Certificate BSSC/BSC requirements changes

[Momac]

7 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I would undoubtedly buy a smoke alarm if required for the BSS, where it would be between the BSS examinations is another issue entirely (it would probably be in the storage box in the cratch with batteries out). Just to illustrate that I'm not being contrary just for the sake of it, I have smoke alarms throughout my land based address (though obviously none in the kitchen), I just don't see on a boat how you can protect the alarm from giving numerous false alarms because of innocuous activities (cooking, fire lighting, etc). As I say, I fully support the compulsory CO alarms.  

 

You can object if you wish . Have you done that ?

 

[cheesegas]

14 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I would undoubtedly buy a smoke alarm if required for the BSS, where it would be between the BSS examinations is another issue entirely (it would probably be in the storage box in the cratch with batteries out). Just to illustrate that I'm not being contrary just for the sake of it, I have smoke alarms throughout my land based address (though obviously none in the kitchen), I just don't see on a boat how you can protect the alarm from giving numerous false alarms because of innocuous activities (cooking, fire lighting, etc). As I say, I fully support the compulsory CO alarms.  

I have a smoke alarm fitted at the front of the boat, the same end as the stove. It's only ever gone off once in the 5 years I've been on the boat, when I seasoned a steel pan on the hob and used the wrong oil, filling the boat with smoke.

 

Small puffs of smoke from the stove when lighting it seem to dissipate before reaching the ceiling, and cooking doesn't affect it either. Maybe try a different location?

 

The only narrowboat fire which the MAIB investigated (which killed 1 person) was on a boat which did not have smoke alarms fitted.

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/fire-on-narrow-boat-lindy-lou-at-lyme-view-marina-adlington-england-with-1-person-injured-and-loss-of-1-life

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Whilst I have no confidence that I would detect CO without an alarm, I'm pretty sure I can smell smoke, and on some occasions, kind of live with it. I have a top feeding coal fire on the boat and when lighting it, to put more coal on it is necessary to lift the lid on it, which often releases small quantities of smoke into the cabin (it has never released enough CO to activate the alarm). A bit like the regular burnt toast in student accommodation, I would guess that this is going to often activate the smoke alarm, along with the likes of frying food on board. Since a boat is, by its very nature, a small environment, it will be difficult to protect the smoke alarm from unthreatening sources of smoke unless it is put somewhere that is kind of pointless (see below). I kind of get the feeling that after the first few activations the smoke alarm will end out living under the cratch cover, out of the way, until the next BSS examination.

 

So can you smell smoke and react quickly when you're in a deep sleep?:

 

I have 2 different smoke alarms on my boat, optical and ionisation and I never get false alarms unless I burn toast or something else in the kitchen.

 

Edited March 24 by blackrose

[jonathanA]

The issue for me isn't whether smoke alarms work or don't they clearly do... the issue is whether not having one should be a mandatory fail on BSS. This to many people, is  unwelcome 'scope creep' by the BSS and beyond their remit. What next ? 

 

I think there is room for more education and awareness and so for me I could support a bss test that was advisory. Which is what I have suggested in the consultation  

[Wanderer Vagabond]

9 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

So can you smell smoke and react quickly when you're in a deep sleep?:

 

I have 2 different smoke alarms on my boat, optical and ionisation and I never get false alarms unless I burn toast or something else in the kitchen.

 

Which is rather my point. I'm also working on the assumption that a fire on the boat will also generate CO which will activate the CO alarm directly above my bed (and another one 10 feet away at the front of the boat). Looking at the principal causes of boat fires engine overheating, fuel system issues, and electrical system failures, the only one likely to happen overnight is electrical, and pretty much everything is switched off overnight. 

[cheesegas]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Which is rather my point. I'm also working on the assumption that a fire on the boat will also generate CO which will activate the CO alarm directly above my bed (and another one 10 feet away at the front of the boat). Looking at the principal causes of boat fires engine overheating, fuel system issues, and electrical system failures, the only one likely to happen overnight is electrical, and pretty much everything is switched off overnight. 

The MAIB incident I linked to has the solid fuel stove as the likely cause - I'd expect this is the case for quite a few fires.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, jonathanA said:

The issue for me isn't whether smoke alarms work or don't they clearly do... the issue is whether not having one should be a mandatory fail on BSS. This to many people, is  unwelcome 'scope creep' by the BSS and beyond their remit. What next ? 

 

I think there is room for more education and awareness and so for me I could support a bss test that was advisory. Which is what I have suggested in the consultation  

That is my gripe as well, I have two smoke and two CO detectors onboard, but if the BS get this what next, Mandatory Lifejackets CRT wear them all the time. Kill cords on the engine like jet skis so you can't revers over your self. 

[Momac]

 

9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

 Lifejackets CRT wear them all the time. 

That is a different risk assessment. C&RT employees and volunteers are in a work environment. When working near water it is common practice to wear a lifejacket. 

12 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

 Kill cords on the engine like jet skis so you can't reverse over your self. 

Not likely to be practical on most diesel engine installations. But certainly usual  practice  on jet skis and small open boats which usually have petrol engines.

 

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

11 minutes ago, Momac said:

 

That is a different risk assessment. C&RT employees and volunteers are in a work environment. When working near water it is common practice to wear a lifejacket. 

Not likely to be practical on most diesel engine installations. But certainly usual  practice  on jet skis and small open boats which usually have petrol engines.

 

 

 

 

I am aware of both those points but it only needs someone to suggest to the BSS its a good idea to save lives, just like smoke detectors

[Up-Side-Down]

It's worth bearing in mind the purpose of the BSS, namely to minimise third party risks.

 

Fitting a smoke alarm will very likely provide an earlier warning of fire than a fire alarm, so giving more chance of it being brought under control before spreading to other craft and the like.

 

It would require a very large stretch of the imagination to extend this concept to the wearing of life jackets and the fitting of kill cords ...........

 

 

[Momac]

28 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I am aware of both those points but it only needs someone to suggest to the BSS its a good idea to save lives, just like smoke detectors

Then I suggest you stop suggesting these things in writing on an easily accessible  forum .

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 hour ago, cheesegas said:

The MAIB incident I linked to has the solid fuel stove as the likely cause - I'd expect this is the case for quite a few fires.

I'm not sure I'm convinced of that. In the link you gave it stated that the stove had not been installed in accordance to the manufacturers recommendations so was faulty from the start. A properly used and installed stove is unlikely to randomly start a fire. The 'favourite' means of starting home fires often involves cooking (usually with fat or oil) and I don't see narrowboats being much different. With the gas system on narrowboats I would suppose that a gas regulator failure could also have dramatic consequences. The next most likely area would be in the engine compartment with either an overheating engine or a short of some sort on the battery system.  

[Arthur Marshall]

50 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I'm not sure I'm convinced of that. In the link you gave it stated that the stove had not been installed in accordance to the manufacturers recommendations so was faulty from the start. A properly used and installed stove is unlikely to randomly start a fire. The 'favourite' means of starting home fires often involves cooking (usually with fat or oil) and I don't see narrowboats being much different. With the gas system on narrowboats I would suppose that a gas regulator failure could also have dramatic consequences. The next most likely area would be in the engine compartment with either an overheating engine or a short of some sort on the battery system.  

Is it possible to install a solid fuel stove in a boat fully in accordance with the manufacturers specs? For a start, it's impossible to have a flue of recommended length.

[wakey_wake]

  

1 hour ago, cheesegas said:

I have a smoke alarm fitted at the front of the boat, the same end as the stove. It's only ever gone off once in the 5 years I've been on the boat, when I seasoned a steel pan on the hob and used the wrong oil, filling the boat with smoke.

 

I got a pair of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B085GD81CQ "Kidde 10SCO Combination 10 Year Life Carbon Monoxide and Smoke Alarm"

One is on the ceiling quite close to the induction hob. (Boat is de-gassed, no stove)

 

There have been maybe four false alarms in as many years, often for no apparent reason and once in the middle of the night. Is it just randomly checking I pay attention to it? I don't know.

 

That's no reason to get rid of it IMO. Its sibling is in the engine room, there's another CO the other end of the galley and another smoke alarm amidships.

 

I consider @LadyG's point of putting it near your head in sleeping position and I'm hoping that five feet above my toes is good enough. Authorities generally seem to agree that CO mixes with the air, and you can improve your chances by sampling the air you breathe while sleeping plus have the noise close enough by for a certain waking up.

 

I put a tiny bit of PVC tape to almost-cover the LEDs, else they're unpleasantly bright in the middle of the night. BSC guy removed one but I don't recall any comment on it. Maybe I told him why it was there?

[jonathanA]

1 hour ago, Up-Side-Down said:

 

It would require a very large stretch of the imagination to extend this concept to the wearing of life jackets and the fitting of kill cords ...........

Like the stretch of imagination that mandated CO alarms and is now imagining smoke detectors being mandated.... 

 

End thin wedge....

Edited March 24 by jonathanA
Sp

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

would require a very large stretch of the imagination to extend this concept to the wearing of life jackets and the fitting of kill cords

Going through the Harecastle, you now get a lecture on the necessity of wearing a life jacket and having all your internal boat lights on, plus some untrained bloke's opinion as to whether your boat's horn is loud enough and the insistence of carrying one of their air horns if he (unlike everyone for the past ten years) thinks it aint. Couple this trend with naff inspectors failing stuff because, I quote, he "doesn't understand electrics", and you do wonder if the BSS is now just a scheme to keep the people who run it in a job.

[Alan de Enfield]

36 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

I got a pair of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B085GD81CQ "Kidde 10SCO Combination 10 Year Life Carbon Monoxide and Smoke Alarm"

One is on the ceiling quite close to the induction hob. (Boat is de-gassed, no stove)

 

The installation instructions are pretty clear - they should not be installed on the celing, or at height' as there is a dead-air-space.

 

They should (ideally) be installed at head height, when lying down, as that is the air level you are breathing when asleep and, most unlikely to notice you are being poisoned.

 

Smoke rises - so the ceiling is the place for a smoke alarm.

CO is virtually the same weight as 'air' and  it is said, "floats around" generally between waist & shoulder height

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, wakey_wake said:

  

 

I got a pair of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B085GD81CQ "Kidde 10SCO Combination 10 Year Life Carbon Monoxide and Smoke Alarm"

One is on the ceiling quite close to the induction hob. (Boat is de-gassed, no stove)

 

There have been maybe four false alarms in as many years, often for no apparent reason and once in the middle of the night. Is it just randomly checking I pay attention to it? I don't know.

 

That's no reason to get rid of it IMO. Its sibling is in the engine room, there's another CO the other end of the galley and another smoke alarm amidships.

 

I consider @LadyG's point of putting it near your head in sleeping position and I'm hoping that five feet above my toes is good enough. Authorities generally seem to agree that CO mixes with the air, and you can improve your chances by sampling the air you breathe while sleeping plus have the noise close enough by for a certain waking up.

 

I put a tiny bit of PVC tape to almost-cover the LEDs, else they're unpleasantly bright in the middle of the night. BSC guy removed one but I don't recall any comment on it. Maybe I told him why it was there?

Did the BSS inspector mention the certification 

"If you already have a Kitemarked alarm, tested to BS EN 50291, or 50291-1, the advice is to keep it, test it routinely and when it needs replacing, choose a unit tested to BS EN 50291-2.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

Did the BSS inspector mention the certification 

"If you already have a Kitemarked alarm, tested to BS EN 50291, or 50291-1, the advice is to keep it, test it routinely and when it needs replacing, choose a unit tested to BS EN 50291-2.

 

 

The part 2 is the one approved for boats, but, when the BSS first came out they did not seem to know there was a Part 1 and a Part2 and were happy with Part 1 alarms being fitted - now they are stuck with them until they break / wear out which is why they say replace them with the Part 2 alarm.

[cheesegas]

15 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I'm not sure I'm convinced of that. In the link you gave it stated that the stove had not been installed in accordance to the manufacturers recommendations so was faulty from the start. A properly used and installed stove is unlikely to randomly start a fire. The 'favourite' means of starting home fires often involves cooking (usually with fat or oil) and I don't see narrowboats being much different. With the gas system on narrowboats I would suppose that a gas regulator failure could also have dramatic consequences. The next most likely area would be in the engine compartment with either an overheating engine or a short of some sort on the battery system.  

That's the issue - there's a lot of stoves which are not properly installed according to manufacturers recommendations. I find that people are more likely to DIY tasks on a narrowboat compared to a house, as it appears smaller and simpler at face value. Many fit outs are DIY'd into a shell too. 

 

The classic one with stoves is being installed too close to a wall, which is covered in tiles stuck to plywood rather than using fireboard. The ply slowly turns to charcoal underneath. 

 

And then there's the human factor...I've seen people stacking wood against the side of their stove to dry it and things placed too close to the stove or on shelves above it which in my opinion is actually far more likely to cause a fire! The stove won't randomly catch fire but something falling onto it might. In houses which generally have more space around the stove, it's less of an issue.

 

An overheating engine alone is very very unlikely to cause a fire; it'll seize way before it randomly combusts. What is more likely is badly installed/non ISO7840 fuel hoses resting on a hot exhaust manifold, or an electrical issue as you say.

[wakey_wake]

  

6 hours ago, jonathanA said:

The issue for me isn't whether smoke alarms work or don't they clearly do... the issue is whether not having one should be a mandatory fail on BSS. This to many people, is  unwelcome 'scope creep' by the BSS [...]  is what I have suggested in the consultation

 

I'm with you, but I haven't seen the consultation... ah,

 

On 17/03/2026 at 10:09, DHutch said:

[...] I've just completed the consultation form having come across it by chance. 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/about-us/consultations-reviews/smoke-alarm-consultation-bs-ssf/the-proposals/

 

 

58 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Going through the Harecastle, you now get a lecture on the necessity of wearing a life jacket [...] plus some untrained bloke's opinion as to whether your boat's horn is loud enough [...] and you do wonder if the BSS is now just a scheme to keep the people who run it in a job.

Lifejacket in a tunnel may not help much. Who is going to see a bobbing head? Who will hear a distant shout above a nearby engine? Hopefully the stats are too small to answer that definitively.

 

I got a water activated flasher for mine, which is annoyingly sensitive to rain. However the non-Ali Express price of these was (in 2021?) utterly ridiculous so... mandating them before use of a tunnel would look to me more like a millstone burden on the whole industry.

 

Since it seems to be happening in various other places, I believe we should be on guard against ostensibly well-meaning but nevertheless crushing regulation, which is used to surreptitiously crush an industry or community. Look at what's being done to farmers, pubs and intact families. (My last comment on that in this thread - I'm abstaining from the Virtual Pub)

 

 

44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The installation instructions are pretty clear - they should not be installed on the celing, or at height' as there is a dead-air-space.

They should (ideally) be installed at head height, when lying down, as that is the air level you are breathing when asleep [...]

Ah, looks like I have been caught not Reading The Fine Manual. 🙄

Usually I'm careful with safety stuff so I'm not sure what happened there - thank you for pointing it out. I will go check and fix it, next trip over.

 

16 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Did the BSS inspector mention the certification 

"If you already have a Kitemarked alarm, tested to BS EN 50291, or 50291-1, the advice is to keep it, test it routinely and when it needs replacing, choose a unit tested to BS EN 50291-2.

 

No. I do remember looking into specifically which certification it had to have, and I thought I had done the right thing.

Also I believed Kidde was a reputable brand (also in 2021), but I know brands get bought and then ensh🙊tified. Take Pyrex for example.

 

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

  

Also I believed Kidde was a reputable brand (also in 2021), but I know brands get bought and then ensh🙊tified. Take Pyrex for example.

 

That would be my view. 

[wakey_wake]

On 04/03/2026 at 23:03, Momac said:

Boat fires can develop fast - like this one which did damage adjacent boats and took out the fuel island,

 

Anyone know more about the green laser dot, appearing 6 ~ 8 minutes in?

I found https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/4183737/laser-focused-innovation-lets-firefighters-see-through-smoke/ but it's thin on detail.

 

I understand that the vid is taken from the far side, after a lot of stuff already happened, and maybe there is no bridge nearby... but I wanted to hear somebody banging on the doors of the building and the roofs of boats, shouting the conflagration word repeatedly. 😞

 

On 04/03/2026 at 23:03, Momac said:

If a boat on fire threatens a nearby boat  then surely you would move the boat that is  not on fire but even then only if it is safe to do so.

One would think... but if you're not familiar with the burning boat, how would you know how likely it is to suddenly escalate?
Maybe I would take a risk to untie my own boat if it was that close? Maybe I would risk my life for a stranger's property? I don't have the training or PPE for either.

[ditchcrawler]

 

This one escalated quite quickly I think.

 

[blackrose]

12 hours ago, jonathanA said:

the issue is whether not having one should be a mandatory fail on BSS. This to many people, is  unwelcome 'scope creep' by the BSS and beyond their remit. What next ? 

 

I don't see any 'scope creep' at all. If one accepts that fire extinguishers should be on board a boat then why not a smoke alarm? You may not want fire extinguishers either of course?

 

I don't think any of this is beyond the remit of the BSS at all. How can it be? The clue is in the name: Boat Safety Scheme. Having an early warning system that a fire may have started and a means of extinguishing the blaze so that in extremis one can at least get out of the boat seems like common sense to me.