HDPE canal boat

[IanD]

Just now, magnetman said:

 

Its a great material to make Boats. I have 4 GRP vessels (all small Boats with no accommodation) but at the end of the day it needs to be taken out as it is entirely non sustainable and just causes problems later. 

 

It would be interesting to see a complete lifecycle ecological analysis done comparing steel/aluminium/wood/GRP/HDPE as materials for boat building, including embedded energy/cost at manufacture, cost and eco impact during lifetime (painting etc), and disposal/recycling. Given how much energy is needed for steel/aluminium manufacture as well as the glass/epoxy for GRP and the plastic for HDPE, I expect it would turn out that wood is by far the best material... 😉 

[magnetman]

Just now, IanD said:

 

It would be interesting to see a complete lifecycle ecological analysis done comparing steel/aluminium/wood/GRP/HDPE as materials for boat building, including embedded energy/cost at manufacture, cost and eco impact during lifetime (painting etc), and disposal/recycling. Given how much energy is needed for steel/aluminium manufacture as well as the glass/epoxy for GRP and the plastic for HDPE, I expect it would turn out that wood is by far the best material... 😉 

 

It would be interesting. 

 

Maybe one could make the steel and aluminium Boats while there is a local surplus of renewable energy. 

 

It could be called Windy Welding.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Momac said:

Well it looks like HDPE boats have been been built including one narrowboat.

Boats have also been built out of concrete, and stainless steel -- including one narrowboat.

 

Maybe you should read the earlier posts in this thread? Also perhaps do some reading up on the structural properties of materials and how they affect things like the design of buildings and boats, both J E Gordon books are highly recommended... 😉 

 

Just now, magnetman said:

 

It would be interesting. 

 

Maybe one could make the steel and aluminium Boats while there is a local surplus of renewable energy. 

 

It could be called Windy Welding.

The welding isn't where all the energy goes, the mining and turning ore into metal is...

Edited November 4, 2024 by IanD

[Momac]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

To be fair the word 'canal' is in the title and people who own canal Boats are notoriously tight*

And resistant to innovation

[magnetman]

 

Its not good to damage the trees. They will get you back later. My family money was made from post WW2 manufacture of wood products and the grandfather was taken out by a tree which hit the plane he was traveling in. They crashed and burned with teeth used for ID. 

 

Later on I had a shed I was supposed to be living in destroyed by a falling tree. 

 

And a tree narrowly missed hitting my Boat last winter. 

 

So I don't accept that wooden Boats are sustainable. 

 

 

[IanD]

Just now, Momac said:

And resistant to innovation

Some certainly are but I'm not in the least, as I'd have thought you'd realised -- innovation is what I do as a job, as well as for fun 🙂

 

But not all innovation is appropriate or sensible... 😉 

[David Mack]

27 minutes ago, Momac said:

Almost all lumpy water GRP boats come with limited fit out options so why not apply that to a narrowboat?

Technically you could. But commercially it would rule out a proportion of the potential customers who want a layout which isn't offered.

Edited November 4, 2024 by David Mack

[Momac]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Maybe you should read the earlier posts in this thread? Also perhaps do some reading up on the structural properties of materials and how they affect things like the design of buildings and boats, both J E Gordon books are highly recommended... 😉 

Maybe you should be more open to new ideas. 

The HDPE narrowboat designers appear to have taken professional design  advice and I would have thought highly likely  that included structural calculations.

 

I perhaps understand more about structural engineering than you realise.

 

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

..... it would rule out a proportion of the potential customers who want a layout which isn't offered.

What's wrong with that?

In any case it would be possible to adapt a hull design prior to hull build.

 

15 minutes ago, IanD said:

Some certainly are but I'm not in the least, as I'd have thought you'd realised -- innovation is what I do as a job, as well as for fun 🙂

 

But not all innovation is appropriate or sensible... 😉 

All innovation deserves to be given a chance.

[IanD]

5 hours ago, Momac said:

Maybe you should be more open to new ideas. 

The HDPE narrowboat designers appear to have taken professional design  advice and I would have thought highly likely  that included structural calculations.

 

I perhaps understand more about structural engineering than you realise.

 

What's wrong with that?

In any case it would be possible to adapt a hull design prior to hull build.

 

All innovation deserves to be given a chance.

Whitefield was innovative... 😉

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, IanD said:

Whitefield was innovative... 😉

Careful Ian, a lot of people may say the same about yours. Its just a personal choice what we spend our money on.

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Careful Ian, a lot of people may say the same about yours. Its just a personal choice what we spend our money on.

Indeed, but my point was that there's ill-thought-out innovation for the sake of it which simply doesn't work, Whitefield being an example of this -- impractical, and apparently almost impossible to steer.

 

That's very different from people making choices which work for them based on personal preference -- I wouldn't want a trad boat with a boatman's cabin, a big thumping diesel covered in shiny brass, and water cans and carefully positioned mop on the roof, but others think this is their ideal boat and wouldn't have mine if they were paid. And their choice is just as valid as mine, and I respect it 🙂

Edited November 4, 2024 by IanD

[john.k]

HDPE would be eminently suitable for a boat that never moves ,a de facto tiny  house ,which many canal boats are ......id think constant abrasion would soon make the hull unsound .......maybe you would need a steel baseplate bolted on for protection

[shaun15124]

Thank you for highlighting key considerations around sustainability, innovation, and practicality. Im excited to share how our HDPE design aligns with these priorities and to give you a preview of what we’re bringing to the Crick Boat Show in 2025.

 

Recyclability is a significant strength of HDPE. For all of our projects, offcuts and excess materials are classified as PIR (Post-Industrial Recycling), meaning they’re efficiently recycled from the start of production. At the end of a boat’s life, HDPE components can be classified as PCR (Post-Consumer Recycling), re-entering the recycling stream as fully recyclable material, which makes HDPE a sustainable choice over the long term.

 

We’re also able to incorporate recycled HDPE into non-structural components, such as cabins, benches, and consoles, which further reduces waste and environmental impact.

 

At Crick, we’ll be showcasing an HDPE narrowboat equipped with the innovative Vetus electric e-Pod 100 propulsion system. This electric setup offers a peak input of 11.3 kW, delivering up to 1280 RPM and 84 Nm of torque at maximum output.

For cruising conditions, it provides a more efficient 9.1 kW input at 1100 RPM, with 79 Nm of torque. This electric configuration complements our sustainability goals and provides a quiet, zero-emission boating experience.

 

I fully agree that thoughtful innovation must prioritize practicality. Our design combines eco-conscious materials and efficient electric propulsion without sacrificing user experience or functionality.

 

While HDPE provides a modern alternative to traditional materials, I respect that every boater has their unique vision. I believe that both traditional and contemporary approaches have their place, and each can meet the high standards boaters expect.

Thanks again for your insight and all these comments I do take them on board

[IanD]

1 hour ago, shaun15124 said:

Thank you for highlighting key considerations around sustainability, innovation, and practicality. Im excited to share how our HDPE design aligns with these priorities and to give you a preview of what we’re bringing to the Crick Boat Show in 2025.

 

Recyclability is a significant strength of HDPE. For all of our projects, offcuts and excess materials are classified as PIR (Post-Industrial Recycling), meaning they’re efficiently recycled from the start of production. At the end of a boat’s life, HDPE components can be classified as PCR (Post-Consumer Recycling), re-entering the recycling stream as fully recyclable material, which makes HDPE a sustainable choice over the long term.

 

We’re also able to incorporate recycled HDPE into non-structural components, such as cabins, benches, and consoles, which further reduces waste and environmental impact.

 

At Crick, we’ll be showcasing an HDPE narrowboat equipped with the innovative Vetus electric e-Pod 100 propulsion system. This electric setup offers a peak input of 11.3 kW, delivering up to 1280 RPM and 84 Nm of torque at maximum output.

For cruising conditions, it provides a more efficient 9.1 kW input at 1100 RPM, with 79 Nm of torque. This electric configuration complements our sustainability goals and provides a quiet, zero-emission boating experience.

 

I fully agree that thoughtful innovation must prioritize practicality. Our design combines eco-conscious materials and efficient electric propulsion without sacrificing user experience or functionality.

 

While HDPE provides a modern alternative to traditional materials, I respect that every boater has their unique vision. I believe that both traditional and contemporary approaches have their place, and each can meet the high standards boaters expect.

Thanks again for your insight and all these comments I do take them on board

 

The Vetus e-Pod may be a good solution for seagoing boats and the rim-driven prop with a ring motor around it is undoubtedly ingenious, but I can see several major problems with it for canal boats, apart from the obvious one of cost... 😉 

 

Apart from the fact that the rpm is high and torque rather low for quiet cruising at canal speeds -- though this will be reduced by the fact that it's ducted -- and it's a small-diameter prop pushing water back at a higher speed than is optimum, it's going to be much more prone to clogging/jamming with weeds and debris than a conventional open propeller, and much harder to clear when this happens -- which it certainly will on the canals.

 

It also looks like the propeller is made from composite not metal, I would be concerned about (expensive!) damage to this if something like a piece of wood is pulled in and jams it, rather than being thrown off like an open prop often does. There's also the problem that if mounted as shown without a skeg underneath it could suffer catastrophic damage with a heavy impact on a solid object on the bottom of the canal, or being hit/caught on a lock cill.

 

It also needs a much bigger clearance from end of swim to rudder than a conventional prop (at least 700mm) which will push the hull centre of buoyancy (and the rear of the cabin) forwards -- maybe not a problem for an HDPE boat which has a lightweight hull and needs lots of ballast anyway.

 

I do agree 100% that innovation is valuable especially in the sometimes over-conservative area of canal boat design, indeed I did several new things on my series hybrid -- so my reservations about HDPE (and even more so the e-Pod!) are not driven by resistance to innovation, just concerns about how this will all work when confronted with the realities of life on the canals.

[magnetman]

The E pod is certainly interesting.

 

I think it may be aimed at people who want innovative things, have a lot of money, use their Boat in open water and can easily afford repair or replacement costs. 

 

I like pod drives as they are very quiet but as IanD suggests above the internal prop design seems a bit dodgy for canals. 

 

I wonder how it would deal with a large input of leaves. 

Edited November 5, 2024 by magnetman
it is not a rim drive.

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The E pod is certainly interesting.

 

I think it may be aimed at people who want innovative things, have a lot of money, use their Boat in open water and can easily afford repair or replacement costs. 

 

I like pod drives as they are very quiet but as IanD suggests above the internal prop design seems a bit dodgy for canals. 

 

I wonder how it would deal with a large input of leaves. 

It's a rim drive -- quote from the e-Pod brochure:

"The E-Pod's propeller, located outside the boat, acts as the rotor for the energy-efficient permanent magnet brushless induction motor drive."

 

[jim mitchell]

20 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The E pod is certainly interesting.

I think it may be aimed at people who want innovative things, have a lot of money, use their Boat in open water and can easily afford repair or replacement costs.

I like pod drives as they are very quiet but as IanD suggests above the internal prop design seems a bit dodgy for canals.

I wonder how it would deal with a large input of leaves. 

 

 An expensive way to avoid a through hull shaft, i think,   for canal or shallow water  why use a POD which is not steerable and  thereby removes the need for a rudder. 

A steerable pod could be mounted " through"  the uxtor  plate and 'steered' as a traditional rudder.

 

Rim drive units that have no centre stucture can definitely pass a lot of varied debris through them without damage.

 

I am not sure just how efficient they may be  but as most thrust on a propeller  comes well away from the centre pointdoubt there is much difference

 

[shaun15124]

I understand that cost is a significant factor, especially in comparison to traditional steel boats. committed to aligning our pricing to be competitive while offering the unique advantages of HDPE.

 

. We are integrating a specific draft system that includes a weed hatch, and we’ll also feature both bow and stern thrusters to enhance maneuverability.

CAD Developments

We’ve recently redesigned elements in our CAD system and created 3D models to anticipate any potential issues before production begins. This allows us to address challenges proactively, ensuring a smoother build process.

Finishing Touches

Regarding aesthetics, our current prototype will be vinyl wrapped for time efficiency, while we work on perfecting the painting process, which requires a specific two-type primer before the final spray application.

Crick Boat Show

If you’re attending the Crick Boat Show, I plan to have the boat on display on land so that everyone can see the entire structure without anything being hidden. We designed the interior to resemble a skeleton framework, eliminating the need for battens, which will give it a unique look and feel.

Learning from Our Prototype

Our prototype, currently moored at Rodley, has provided invaluable insights over the past four to five months, particularly in how it handles various weather conditions and interactions with other boaters. I’ll include some pictures of this prototype for your reference.

[RAB]

Does this bring a whole new meaning to Magnet fishing 🤔

 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, jim mitchell said:

 

 An expensive way to avoid a through hull shaft, i think,   for canal or shallow water  why use a POD which is not steerable and  thereby removes the need for a rudder. 

A steerable pod could be mounted " through"  the uxtor  plate and 'steered' as a traditional rudder.

 

Rim drive units that have no centre stucture can definitely pass a lot of varied debris through them without damage.

 

I am not sure just how efficient they may be  but as most thrust on a propeller  comes well away from the centre pointdoubt there is much difference

 

A steerable pod like this would make more sense, but the need for a watertight rotating bearing which can support high loads and pass cables though would add even more to the cost, see similar steerable pod drives -- which usually have the motor vertically mounted driving a shaft down the leg to a bevel gear to drive the prop.

 

A big rim drive can pass lots though, but this one is quite small (the prop is about 10" diameter) so the gaps between the blades are not very big, and it does have a small vertical leg to centre the prop which gives something for a jam like a piece of wood or branch to catch against.

 

If UK canals weren't so full of cr*p then this might be a good idea (except maybe for the cost...) but they are -- and though a damaged prop can easily be replaced (see diagram above) I hate to think what a replacement costs***, knowing Vetus prices... 😉 

 

A ducted prop like this is more efficient and quieter and gives more thrust than an open prop, there are no tip vortices and the shape of the housing provides "free" thrust... 🙂 

 

*** just over £2000...

 

P.S. Definitely rim drive...

https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/best-electric-outboard-motor-67943

Edited November 5, 2024 by IanD

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

It's a rim drive -- quote from the e-Pod brochure:

"The E-Pod's propeller, located outside the boat, acts as the rotor for the energy-efficient permanent magnet brushless induction motor drive."

 

 

 OK. Rim drives usually have propeller blades pointing inwards. 

 

Debris can be flushed straight through. The Vetus seems to be the worst of both worlds. 

 

RimDrive

 

 

 

Vetus E Pod

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by magnetman

[jim mitchell]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

A big rim drive can pass lots though, but this one is quite small (the prop is about 10" diameter) so the gaps between the blades are not very big, and it does have a small vertical leg to centre the prop which gives something for a jam like a piece of wood or branch to catch against.

 

If UK canals weren't so full of cr*p then this might be a good idea (except maybe for the cost...) but they are -- and though a damaged prop can easily be replaced (see diagram above) I hate to think what a replacement costs, knowing Vetus prices... 😉 

 I agree Ian re canal 'debris'   if i were to try, it might be something like this one

https://rimdrivetechnology.nl/product/steerable-pod-8-0

 but also adding a skid plate extenstion under it and with some type of pivot 'support'  to protect against riding over larger obstacles / grounding.

The Blades are replacable individually  and while not cheap as an almost complete package  it is not so far out from other inboard units  once props / cooling system  etc are added.

[magnetman]

3 minutes ago, jim mitchell said:

 I agree Ian re canal 'debris'   if i were to try, it might be something like this one

https://rimdrivetechnology.nl/product/steerable-pod-8-0

 but also adding a skid plate extenstion under it and with some type of pivot 'support'  to protect against riding over larger obstacles / grounding.

The Blades are replacable individually  and while not cheap as an almost complete package  it is not so far out from other inboard units  once props / cooling system  etc are added.

I am guessing the large diameter bearing is the weakness on these and why Vetus added a central hub.

 

The Vetus unit looks extremely susceptible to fouling. 

 

(I edited my post above before reading yours)

[jim mitchell]

Thinking at a tangent  how about a sterling engine - cold side in the canal , hot side a webasto style heater or a larger multifuel stove / back boiler - with an alternator attached -  near silent cruise, any fuel would do  and it might even be silent enough to avoid the 8 pm generator rule 🤔

[magnetman]

A gentleman from Bray does this but it is only a dinghy. Sterling engine run from LPG to charge battery then an ePropulsion outboard. 

Of course he lives in a house so also has mains to charge the batteries... 

 

Interesting idea but I wonder if it would be effective for long hours.