Transporting Dutch Houseboat from The Netherlands to UK

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Still a nice idea. Maybe a semi submersible to carry it. 

 

We were (are) looking to ship the Cat out to either Thailand or Cambodia.

1st thought was to take a year and sail the 10,144 nm (shortest route) but that would involve the Suez Canal and around the horn of Africa which is currently the most dangerous sea area in the world for Pirates and we were strongly advised by many organiations not to do it

We costed it out and it looked like, taking into account the damage sailing for 10,000 miles would do, with wear & tear to the rigging and engines, plus everything else it would probably cost around $40-$50,000.

 

I then looked at taking her as deck cargo on a 'big ship' and the cost for that was $30,000 + making a cradle to suit, + landing charges, import duty and taxes at the other end.

 

There was very little difference in price and she would be there in around 2-3 months depending on the ship and the route she was taking. Nothing worn out, no damage from Hurricanes etc etc.

 

It is still on the cards to do it as No1 Son works in that region and could make use of her.

 

I'm not sure if such a service would be available on such a short route as Amstedam to Grangemouth, but maybe a shipping agent would know.

 

This is the company I was working with :

 

Sea Freight - Freight Forwarding | Peters & May (petersandmay.com)

 

I'm sure if they can load Helicopters and tanks onto Deck Skids they'd manage a boat.

 

 

 

[Tam & Di]

 When we bought our 24m x 4.2m barge out of trade in Friesland we planned to cruise it back to our yard on the GU in Southall for conversion to a leisure boat for eventual return to France. Unfortunately it developed engine problems which made this impractical so we decided to get it to the UK as deck cargo. We did have the advantage that we owned 3 little coasters, and we organised a freight Harwich to Dordrecht and then a fairly light return freight from Rotterdam - this would stabilise our 40m Thameswood with the barge on the hatches. The dockers at Rotterdam were no problem, and the job was effortless. We knew there was a dock crane that could handle 30 tonnes at Gravesend, and we'd had the return load scheduled for discharge there. The London dockers were a lot more bolshy, as anticipated, but we'd planned that they had to crane the barge off to get to the freight  😉

 

I think Alan's 30m Locator could handle the OP's barge similarly, assuming the deck hatches could cope with the weight, but Amsterdam-Grangemouth is a considerably longer trip than Rotterdam-London (and there would still be the final run to Glasgow). Also if the OP has to get a mobile crane in that makes it much more problematic (and costly) finding a suitable location in Scotland.

 

We've promoted water transport all our working lives, but all-in-all, road transport is probably the best option here.

 

In fact, looking at it again, 15000€ is only about £12700 currently, which from my experience with such loads seems a pretty good deal to me, especially if that includes all the necessary paperwork.

 

Edited September 23, 2024 by Tam & Di
costings

[Alan de Enfield]

The OP now has contact details for both International road transport, and sea freight, he can cost his options, but I'd still suggest he contacts the necessary authorities regarding VAT and the RCR. before finalising his plan.

 

If he has to pay 20% of its value, and, £6000 for a PCA it may, or maybe not, kill the project for him.

[magnetman]

19 hours ago, Tam & Di said:

 When we bought our 24m x 4.2m barge out of trade in Friesland we planned to cruise it back to our yard on the GU in Southall for conversion to a leisure boat for eventual return to France. Unfortunately it developed engine problems which made this impractical so we decided to get it to the UK as deck cargo. We did have the advantage that we owned 3 little coasters, and we organised a freight Harwich to Dordrecht and then a fairly light return freight from Rotterdam - this would stabilise our 40m Thameswood with the barge on the hatches. The dockers at Rotterdam were no problem, and the job was effortless. We knew there was a dock crane that could handle 30 tonnes at Gravesend, and we'd had the return load scheduled for discharge there. The London dockers were a lot more bolshy, as anticipated, but we'd planned that they had to crane the barge off to get to the freight  😉

 

I think Alan's 30m Locator could handle the OP's barge similarly, assuming the deck hatches could cope with the weight, but Amsterdam-Grangemouth is a considerably longer trip than Rotterdam-London (and there would still be the final run to Glasgow). Also if the OP has to get a mobile crane in that makes it much more problematic (and costly) finding a suitable location in Scotland.

 

We've promoted water transport all our working lives, but all-in-all, road transport is probably the best option here.

 

In fact, looking at it again, 15000€ is only about £12700 currently, which from my experience with such loads seems a pretty good deal to me, especially if that includes all the necessary paperwork.

 

I passed your old barge at St Aines upon Thames this afternoon. Its a nice article. 

Edited September 24, 2024 by magnetman

[amsterdamhouseboattgm1966]

On 23/09/2024 at 14:38, Tam & Di said:

Does the wheelhouse fold down to the level of the top of the cabin? - It probably means lifting the doors off from what I can tell of the photo, but might give a wider choice of routes once in the UK.

 

One of the plans was to try and remove the wheelhouse before the boat gets moved so as to try and mitigate any further costs (e.g. weight and height restrictions etc.). I was probably going to cover the area where the wheelhouse is with tarpaulin or maybe even a bit of wood just cover up the hole till I can get it to Scotland. Would this be viable or should I just leave it as is?

 

On 23/09/2024 at 15:11, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Mine was an expensive specialist mover as the height of the boat meant it wouldn't fit under standard UK bridges (16' 6") even with everything folded down.

 

I had to get a special low loader that had a hydraulic trailer so that when they got to a bridge it could be lowered from 'road driving height' down to 100mm, go thru the bridge, stop and raise it again. (It then came down to 16' 0" so was OK).

It cost £2500 to move 205 miles (across england from Newark to North Wales. Took 2 days due to Police driving hours restrictions, and two people and an Escort vehicle.

 

If you want to call them the name is on the side of the truck. They do International collections and deliveries so know what they are doing crossing borders. They do have 'normal' boat moving lorries as well.

Being in Lincoln they are well placed to do Hull - Rotterdam for a Netherlands pick up.. back to Hull and up the A1 to Scotland.

Simples.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure I've heard of SG Haulage, I might've even sent an email for a quote from them but got no reply. Perhaps my best bet would be to phone them up instead?

 

On 23/09/2024 at 23:35, Alan de Enfield said:

The OP now has contact details for both International road transport, and sea freight, he can cost his options, but I'd still suggest he contacts the necessary authorities regarding VAT and the RCR. before finalising his plan.

 

If he has to pay 20% of its value, and, £6000 for a PCA it may, or maybe not, kill the project for him.

 

Lots to consider here. I'm guessing removing and then reattaching the wheelhouse in the UK would require a PCA? Would I have to get in contact with the relevant government branch that deals with the RCR or is there some sort of organisation I can get in touch with that deals with that?

 

Once again, lots of good insight! Any other relevant factors that I need to be aware of would help out quite a bit.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, amsterdamhouseboattgm1966 said:

Lots to consider here. I'm guessing removing and then reattaching the wheelhouse in the UK would require a PCA? Would I have to get in contact with the relevant government branch that deals with the RCR or is there some sort of organisation I can get in touch with that deals with that?

 

It will require a PCA irrespective as it is coming into the UK post Brexit.

 

I'll message you some details about contacts

15 minutes ago, amsterdamhouseboattgm1966 said:

Any other relevant factors that I need to be aware of would help out quite a bit.

 

Message sent but don't know if you have enough posts to be able to receive PMs.

 

Let me know if you get it, if not I can email the infor to you.

[amsterdamhouseboattgm1966]

On 26/09/2024 at 15:02, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It will require a PCA irrespective as it is coming into the UK post Brexit.

 

I'll message you some details about contacts

 

Message sent but don't know if you have enough posts to be able to receive PMs.

 

Let me know if you get it, if not I can email the infor to you.

Got your message, thanks. 

 

So, if I were to get the boat moved to Scotland, I would then have to get in touch with the RCR people in order to get a PCA?

If the boat doesn't pass the PCA, what would be most likely to happen? I assume they would recommend scrapping the boat?

I'm just curious as I'd hate to have to spend a large amount of money getting it uplifted or towed, shelling out money for an assessment, and then being told that it's not fit for purpose.

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, amsterdamhouseboattgm1966 said:

Got your message, thanks. 

 

So, if I were to get the boat moved to Scotland, I would then have to get in touch with the RCR people in order to get a PCA?

If the boat doesn't pass the PCA, what would be most likely to happen? I assume they would recommend scrapping the boat?

I'm just curious as I'd hate to have to spend a large amount of money getting it uplifted or towed, shelling out money for an assessment, and then being told that it's not fit for purpose.

 

They won't tell you that, but they will tell you what points need addressing to their satisfaction, then, depending upon the time lapsed and who is doing it, you may have to pay for a re-assessment. It will be your choice whether you scrap the boat or pay out for rectification. I very much doubt the RCR is interested in the state of the hull, so I doubt they will test that. As long as the boat meets the required standards, it can sink tomorrow as far as they will be concerned.

[Alan de Enfield]

There arre a list of "Essential Requirements" which must be met - if you 'fail' any of them then you will not get the PCA / RCR certifications.

 

I have messaged you with the complete list**

 

 

All you will get is a fail and a list of things for rectifications (Like a car MOT), it is up to you to decide if it is economically viable to do them, but, is probably an issue if you have already spent £1000's getting it here.

 

Maybe arrange for the RCR PCA to be undertaken in Amsterdam then if it is not economical at least you save all the shipping costs.

 

Contact the names I gave you, they may do it in Holland, or know someone who does. Explain the circumstances to them.

 

** Dont worry about the owners manual, manufacturers plaque, stability and weight limits etc as the PCA Surveyor does all that for  you as part of their fee. It is more like, 'structural / safety' things such as strong point for towing, means of boading if you fall overboard, etc.  ie things that need rectifying or replacing, or are just 'absent' that will result in a 'fail.

Edited September 28, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There arre a list of "Essential Requirements" which must be met - if you 'fail' any of them then you will not get the PCA / RCR certifications.

 

But what happens if they fail it and the OP doesn't do the work, what will happen

[Paul C]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But what happens if they fail it and the OP doesn't do the work, what will happen

 

I imagine 2 paths could occur:

 

1) The OP ignores the fail and puts the boat in the water (presumably onto Scottish Canals' water). It would be unlicensed, uninsurable and subject to whatever process Scottish Canals uses to deal with such vessels. It might also be impossible to obtain a mooring without the necessary admin

2) The OP respects the fail and does not undertake the relevant work. It would remain on dry land at its destination in Scotland, probably accruing storage costs on their yard.

 

Given the high cost of transport, it would be folly to bring such a boat over without all the paperwork in place already, for it to only sit in a yard, or be subject to seizure etc.

 

And I know there's plenty of boats in England/Wales canals etc which probably need a PCA and would probably fail it. PCA isn't important, until its important (like, buying, selling, first licence, etc)

[MtB]

38 minutes ago, Paul C said:

1) The OP ignores the fail and puts the boat in the water (presumably onto Scottish Canals' water). It would be unlicensed, uninsurable and subject to whatever process Scottish Canals uses to deal with such vessels.

 

 

If those processes are the same as CRT's then the OP could buy third party insurance from basic-boat.co.uk, get a BSS ticket and just licence it. 

 

SC and CRT are not there to police RCR.

 

 

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

If those processes are the same as CRT's then the OP could buy third party insurance from basic-boat.co.uk, get a BSS ticket and just licence it. 

 

SC and CRT are not there to police RCR.

 

 

 

Apologies, yes its possible to simply go the "BSS" route and obtain a BSS within a month of putting the boat into a Scottish Canal. Even for new boats, it would seem. And I don't think you need the PCA since its not being "placed on the market" - its just being imported by its owner, who will remain its owner. I was misled by some of the posts above which suggest its a requirement but I don't agree.

 

It will be interesting when it comes to selling, but that's another kettle of fish.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

And I don't think you need the PCA since its not being "placed on the market" - its just being imported by its owner, who will remain its owner.

 

 

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 (SI 737) as Amended

 

The Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR) are UK law that applies to all craft in scope when first placed on the UK market or put into service on the UK market, this includes all new craft and second hand craft brought into the UK regardless of age. It can also apply to craft that may have been used as commercial craft before being put on the recreational market regardless of age, and craft having undergone Major Craft Conversion.

Edited September 28, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[Paul C]

But its still not "on the UK market".

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Once a brand new boat built in Europe and complying with the RCD 'hits the UK' it will require a PCA and certification to the RCR 

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

when first placed on the UK market or put into service on the UK market,

 

Just now, Paul C said:

But its still not "on the UK market".

 

Edited September 28, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

As opposed to "Put into service on the UK waterways", which is what the OP to be planning to do. 

 

 

[Paul C]

No worries Alan de E, that's your interpretation of the wording. I and others have a different interpretation.

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Paul C said:

But its still not "on the UK market".

 

Quite.

 

From the Cambridge on line dictionary:

 

on the market

 

available for sale:

We put our house on the market as soon as house prices started to rise.

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/market

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

No worries Alan de E, that's your interpretation of the wording. I and others have a different interpretation.

 

Then I'd suggest that your (and others) interpretation is flawed :

 

Obligations of private importers

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.
The obligations of private importers include:
•
If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.
•
The private importer must ensure before putting recreational craft into service that it has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements.
Until 31 December 2021, products conforming to EU rules, including the CE marking, may be placed on the market of Great Britain.
Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Guidance (GB)
•
The private importer must ensure that the obligations for manufacturer covering technical documentation; declaration of conformity; relevant marking; instructions and safety information; provision of information and cooperation have been met or carried out.
•
Where technical documentation is not available from the manufacturer, the private importer must have this drawn up using the appropriate expertise.
•
The private importer must ensure that the name and postal address of the approved body that carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure in relation to the product is marked on the craft.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then I'd suggest that your (and others) interpretation is flawed :

 

Obligations of private importers

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.
The obligations of private importers include:
•
If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.
•
The private importer must ensure before putting recreational craft into service that it has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements.
Until 31 December 2021, products conforming to EU rules, including the CE marking, may be placed on the market of Great Britain.
Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Guidance (GB)
•
The private importer must ensure that the obligations for manufacturer covering technical documentation; declaration of conformity; relevant marking; instructions and safety information; provision of information and cooperation have been met or carried out.
•
Where technical documentation is not available from the manufacturer, the private importer must have this drawn up using the appropriate expertise.
•
The private importer must ensure that the name and postal address of the approved body that carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure in relation to the product is marked on the craft.

 

 

Thanks. That all seems clearer. 

 

BUT, I see you once again have not provided the source of that text, and you have a history on here of posting gobbets of obsolete and/or superseded regulations.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

BUT, I see you once again have not provided the source of that text, and you have a history on here of posting gobbets of obsolete and/or superseded regulations.

 

 

This must be the 10th time I've quoted & posted this document - I thought you may have seen it, I didn't post it as I keep getting criticised for C&Ping.

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

This must be the 10th time I've quoted & posted this document - I thought you may have seen it, I didn't post it as I keep getting criticised for C&Ping.

 

 

 

 

Thanks again. But how were we to know that? 

 

Not all of us have read that link from end to end and committed it to memory. 

 

Just a text link would have sufficed. Or even a statement tlling where that the gobbet you posted came from.

 

And finally, thanks for the opportunity to keep using my new favourite word, "gobbet".

 

[Paul C]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then I'd suggest that your (and others) interpretation is flawed :

 

Obligations of private importers

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.
The obligations of private importers include:
•
If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.
•
The private importer must ensure before putting recreational craft into service that it has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements.
Until 31 December 2021, products conforming to EU rules, including the CE marking, may be placed on the market of Great Britain.
Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Guidance (GB)
•
The private importer must ensure that the obligations for manufacturer covering technical documentation; declaration of conformity; relevant marking; instructions and safety information; provision of information and cooperation have been met or carried out.
•
Where technical documentation is not available from the manufacturer, the private importer must have this drawn up using the appropriate expertise.
•
The private importer must ensure that the name and postal address of the approved body that carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure in relation to the product is marked on the craft.

 

Its not as simple as that though - because the body which is empowered to police the RCR are Trading Standards. And since there is no 'sale' of the boat occurring, they are basically not interested. It is a crime which goes unpunished, an injustice if you like. But one with no victim. And furthermore, it seems that Scottish Waterways are happy to accept a boat onto their waters WITHOUT the RCR or PCA, so long as it has a BSS. Put simply, they are happy with a less exacting check on the boat (a BSS is much cheaper than a PCA). Even if its a new, or new-to-UK, boat. 

 

So my pragmatic interpretation is, in this scenario, "you don't need a PCA".

[Alan de Enfield]

47 minutes ago, Paul C said:

So my pragmatic interpretation is, in this scenario, "you don't need a PCA".

 

The legal requirement is that you do.

 

Whether you decide to do it is another matter - if caught the penalty is up to 3 months imprisonment, a criminal record and its effect on your life, job, credit rating etc etc.

There is a very detailed process for arriving in a boat (unless the French Police have assisted you on the beach) which requires a Customs declaration and loads of paperwork. Even arriving back from an overseas holiday you are required to fly the Q flag and await customs clearance to enter port / harbour. 

 

Do you MOT your car, or does your pragmatic interpretation say its not necessary ?