Question from a total novice

[BilgePump]

8 hours ago, zapgaz said:

I was looking at a Shetland on another site

Don't know if I read too much into it, but, apparently when the hull is constructed they are pumped full of foam (for buoyancy?) from the OUTSIDE and the hole plugged with sealer.

I've read a story about the seal giving way, silently saturating the foam, and causing problems which would be way out of my depth.

I may be reading to much Into stuff

 

 

 

That Shetland is a nice boat but certainly wouldn't recommend it for a liveaboard. They are just too small, the same problems that Harold mentions with the Norman 20. As for the foam sandwich construction, yes there can be issues but in general it won't sink the boat. The hull has an inner moulding and the gap is then filled. It gets waterlogged through water ingress from the top (leaking windows, vents, canopy etc) getting between the two mouldings. Have experience of a Shetland 536 and 570 with exactly that issue. One solution is to cut out the floor, dig out the sodden foam, then fill the space with those little swimming pool balls and reinstate the floor. Look out for a Norman 22/3/4 or a Viking 23 and it will seem enormous compared to a smaller Norman or Shetland.

[Crewcut]

You don't need to worry about fibreglass hulls to the same extent you do with steel boats - if it's floating and there's no physical damage (from collisions, etc.) it should be fine but you need to at least see the below waterline areas properly from the inside - bilges, below seat lockers, etc.. Still best to inspect out of the water if possible having said that. Any blistering/osmosis can be ground out & filled if you're fussy but it won't sink the boat. Best IMO would be small diesel on a shaft, I wouldn't totally discount an outdrive and outboard would also be ok. On to the Nauticus 27, you could with work make such a boat in to a decent, comfortable space for one - insulate but also in time if it were me I'd consider removing (some/all?) the larger windows, use ply/glass to fill and fit portholes instead. Fit a small wood burner & a diesel warm air heater. You'd have space for some solar & bigger water tank(s). Much, much more feasible/comfortable/pleasureable in something like that than a 20ft boat. Personally I'd avoid Viking boats, flimsily and shoddily built in my experience - a friend had one...

[zapgaz]

4 minutes ago, Crewcut said:

You don't need to worry about fibreglass hulls to the same extent you do with steel boats - if it's floating and there's no physical damage (from collisions, etc.) it should be fine but you need to at least see the below waterline areas properly from the inside - bilges, below seat lockers, etc.. Still best to inspect out of the water if possible having said that. Any blistering/osmosis can be ground out & filled if you're fussy but it won't sink the boat. Best IMO would be small diesel on a shaft, I wouldn't totally discount an outdrive and outboard would also be ok. On to the Nauticus 27, you could with work make such a boat in to a decent, comfortable space for one - insulate but also in time if it were me I'd consider removing (some/all?) the larger windows, use ply/glass to fill and fit portholes instead. Fit a small wood burner & a diesel warm air heater. You'd have space for some solar & bigger water tank(s). Much, much more feasible/comfortable/pleasureable in something like that than a 20ft boat. Personally I'd avoid Viking boats, flimsily and shoddily built in my experience - a friend had one...

Thanks, it was a Viking I was considering, but I've remembered a convo with my friend about 1970s and older boats being much more heavily built, and now focusing my search on older boats, specifically Norman 22/23 or my number 1 choice is a Callum Craft 22, I've seen one in Glasgow in my price range, on a trailer, but i suspect the total weight is slightly more than my van can tow, and paying someone isnt an option, although i know that trailer is worth a few quid to recoup.

The Nauticus was already insulated, had a calorifier, diesel inboard, shower, wood burner, but, the windscreen has been torn off, all 4 of the rubbing strakes were hanging off, plenty of damage above the water line, water in rear bilge, fuel leak, you couldn't look at the outside without seeing more work.

However, it was only the rubbing strakes that concerned me, I'm fairly certain I could replace them while the boat was on the water, but would be quite a task.

They were asking 3.5k for it, and I made a very generous offer of up to 2k, which hasn't as yet been completely declined.

 

 

 

[Crewcut]

15 minutes ago, zapgaz said:

Thanks, it was a Viking I was considering, but I've remembered a convo with my friend about 1970s and older boats being much more heavily built, and now focusing my search on older boats, specifically Norman 22/23 or my number 1 choice is a Callum Craft 22, I've seen one in Glasgow in my price range, on a trailer, but i suspect the total weight is slightly more than my van can tow, and paying someone isnt an option, although i know that trailer is worth a few quid to recoup.

The Nauticus was already insulated, had a calorifier, diesel inboard, shower, wood burner, but, the windscreen has been torn off, all 4 of the rubbing strakes were hanging off, plenty of damage above the water line, water in rear bilge, fuel leak, you couldn't look at the outside without seeing more work.

However, it was only the rubbing strakes that concerned me, I'm fairly certain I could replace them while the boat was on the water, but would be quite a task.

They were asking 3.5k for it, and I made a very generous offer of up to 2k, which hasn't as yet been completely declined.

 

 

 

If you break that down though it's all manageable (assuming there's no structural damage to the hull and the engine runs), it's a damn sight easier, quicker and less convoluted to do work on the outside of a boat whilst living on it than it is the inside and on the inside of that one you already have all the essentials that you'll need to live aboard. I would choose it all day long over a boat that was immaculate on the outside but needing all the things that boat has doing. A good scrub, sand & fill where necessary and a fresh coat of paint work wonders on a scruffy old boat...

[BilgePump]

18 minutes ago, zapgaz said:

Thanks, it was a Viking I was considering, but I've remembered a convo with my friend about 1970s and older boats being much more heavily built, and now focusing my search on older boats, specifically Norman 22/23 or my number 1 choice is a Callum Craft 22, I've seen one in Glasgow in my price range, on a trailer, but i suspect the total weight is slightly more than my van can tow, and paying someone isnt an option, although i know that trailer is worth a few quid to recoup.

The Nauticus was already insulated, had a calorifier, diesel inboard, shower, wood burner, but, the windscreen has been torn off, all 4 of the rubbing strakes were hanging off, plenty of damage above the water line, water in rear bilge, fuel leak, you couldn't look at the outside without seeing more work.

However, it was only the rubbing strakes that concerned me, I'm fairly certain I could replace them while the boat was on the water, but would be quite a task.

They were asking 3.5k for it, and I made a very generous offer of up to 2k, which hasn't as yet been completely declined.

 

 

 

CallumCraft 22 dry weight apparently 1066kg according to https://normanboats.net/range/norman_range.htm .

Add on trailer weight and bits and you'll be getting on for 1.5 tons.

That's the max for my car but wouldn't want to tow it long distances.

 

[zapgaz]

1 minute ago, BilgePump said:

CallumCraft 22 dry weight apparently 1066kg according to https://normanboats.net/range/norman_range.htm .

Add on trailer weight and bits and you'll be getting on for 1.5 tons.

That's the max for my car but wouldn't want to tow it long distances.

 

The max for my van is 1300kg. I did see that info on Norman site, and did a rough calculation of me stripping outboard, and anything loose inside the boat and putting in my van to reduce trailer weight, and came to conclusion that it would be too close to call, especially given that I'll almost certainly get pulled over towing a huge boat with a diddy van, it's 165 miles from boat to nearest usable canal.

 

6 minutes ago, Crewcut said:

If you break that down though it's all manageable (assuming there's no structural damage to the hull and the engine runs), it's a damn sight easier, quicker and less convoluted to do work on the outside of a boat whilst living on it than it is the inside and on the inside of that one you already have all the essentials that you'll need to live aboard. I would choose it all day long over a boat that was immaculate on the outside but needing all the things that boat has doing. A good scrub, sand & fill where necessary and a fresh coat of paint work wonders on a scruffy old boat...

The engine had been run, a mechanic had turned up before I arrived to get it going. Old diesels are definitely my thing, I'd want to see it start from cold to see what's what.

Diesel leak likely caused by said mechanic cracking injector.

 

What would you do about the rubbing strakes? When I say hanging off, it looks like they're holding on with 1 bolt or the moss!

Replace with wood, rubber strips or remove strakes and bolts then seal holes and worry later?

[BilgePump]

1 minute ago, zapgaz said:

The max for my van is 1300kg. I did see that info on Norman site, and did a rough calculation of me stripping outboard, and anything loose inside the boat and putting in my van to reduce trailer weight, and came to conclusion that it would be too close to call, especially given that I'll almost certainly get pulled over towing a huge boat with a diddy van, it's 165 miles from boat to nearest usable canal.

 

There's a dozen ways to skin a cat, as my neighbour used to say (he was an animal lover btw). If you see something in the 23' range that fits the bill on a trailer that you can't tow but you know that the trailer has good value and you can sell it (always in demand), then it's worth paying to have something piggy back on a big recovery truck for delivery and then flog the trailer once launched to go towards the transport.

[David Mack]

14 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

CallumCraft 22 dry weight apparently 1066kg according to https://normanboats.net/range/norman_range.htm .

Add on trailer weight and bits and you'll be getting on for 1.5 tons.

That's the max for my car but wouldn't want to tow it long distances.

 

Frequently recommended on here:

https://www.tonytugboats.com/21.html

 

[zapgaz]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Frequently recommended on here:

https://www.tonytugboats.com/21.html

 

Very helpful, thanks.

[Alan de Enfield]

34 minutes ago, zapgaz said:

The max for my van is 1300kg. I did see that info on Norman site, and did a rough calculation of me stripping outboard, and anything loose inside the boat and putting in my van to reduce trailer weight, and came to conclusion that it would be too close to call, especially given that I'll almost certainly get pulled over towing a huge boat with a diddy van, it's 165 miles from boat to nearest usable canal.

 

If the boat has a roadworthy trailer (with working brakes) then it would be far cheaper to hire a car (shogun or similar) for the day and tow it yourself - or - pay a mate with a bigger van some beer-vouchers.

 

Piling stuff into the back of the van does not reduce the maximum all up weight, it just transfers if from the trailer to the van, and it is the braking capability of the van that pretty much determines the towing capacity.

[Crewcut]

Rubbing strakes Might be salvageable or if not something like this? I'm not the right person to ask tbh but fix/refix with a good adhesive sealant (CT1/OB1 is what I usually use), (stainless) screwed to hold them in place while it goes off which you could then either remove and seal or leave maybe?

[MtB]

9 hours ago, zapgaz said:

The engine had been run, a mechanic had turned up before I arrived to get it going. Old diesels are definitely my thing, I'd want to see it start from cold to see what's what.

 

Bloody annoying when this happens! But hard to show one's annoyance as usually they usually only trying to be helpful making sure they can show you it running...

 

 

 

9 hours ago, zapgaz said:

What would you do about the rubbing strakes? When I say hanging off, it looks like they're holding on with 1 bolt or the moss!

Replace with wood, rubber strips or remove strakes and bolts then seal holes and worry later?

 

The latter. Rubbing strakes are really only cosmetic in my opinion. Get rid unless you think you will be a clumsy steerer.

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

19 hours ago, zapgaz said:

What would you do about the rubbing strakes? When I say hanging off, it looks like they're holding on with 1 bolt or the moss!

Replace with wood, rubber strips or remove strakes and bolts then seal holes and worry later?

 

Exactly what are the rubbing strakes bade from? That may alter any advice you get. I think the rubber rubbing band that had a photo posted also needs a filler strip insetted once it is on the boat, that can be very difficult. I think it would also need large washers under something like pan headed machine screws to prevent the heads pulling through the rubber. That may well make fitting the filler strip even more difficult, depending on is shape at the back.

 

Refitting timber strakes is not so difficult as long as you have access to the back of the hull and someone to initially hold them in place. I would recess drill them from the outside and fit with stainless steel or brass bolts, with the nuts and washers on the inside covered in a layer of GRP. The steel or aluminium shallow D section strip is drilled, countersunk, and screwed into the timber to cover the holes and provide extra abrasion protection.

 

In both cases, I would use a non-setting sealer behind the strakes because there is every chance they will need to come off in the future, and you don't want the glued in place.

 

If the boat has a square transom, ensure the stern of the strakes protect the GRP corners.

[zapgaz]

27 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Exactly what are the rubbing strakes bade from? That may alter any advice you get. I think the rubber rubbing band that had a photo posted also needs a filler strip insetted once it is on the boat, that can be very difficult. I think it would also need large washers under something like pan headed machine screws to prevent the heads pulling through the rubber. That may well make fitting the filler strip even more difficult, depending on is shape at the back.

 

Refitting timber strakes is not so difficult as long as you have access to the back of the hull and someone to initially hold them in place. I would recess drill them from the outside and fit with stainless steel or brass bolts, with the nuts and washers on the inside covered in a layer of GRP. The steel or aluminium shallow D section strip is drilled, countersunk, and screwed into the timber to cover the holes and provide extra abrasion protection.

 

In both cases, I would use a non-setting sealer behind the strakes because there is every chance they will need to come off in the future, and you don't want the glued in place.

 

If the boat has a square transom, ensure the stern of the strakes protect the GRP corners.

They are made of hardwood of some description, and to be honest, the whole thing looks like Mr Magoo has been at the wheel for quite some time. 

Not heard back from seller, and I’m not prompting them.

I’m not saying I'm overly superstitious, but the boat reg spells my DOB, and at the moment, I’m thinking that’s a bad thing!

Hopefully viewing another boat tomorrow.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, zapgaz said:

I’m not saying I'm overly superstitious, but the boat reg spells my DOB, and at the moment, I’m thinking that’s a bad thing!

Hopefully viewing another boat tomorrow.

 

Sounds to me like a totally unsuitable boat calling you to buy it. 

 

Resistance is futile!

 

 

[zapgaz]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Sounds to me like a totally unsuitable boat calling you to buy it. 

 

Resistance is futile!

 

 

Didn’t clock the number until I got there! Tried to ignore it, won’t leave me be!

😂

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, zapgaz said:

Didn’t clock the number until I got there! Tried to ignore it, won’t leave me be!

😂

 

You're done for mate, get the cheque book out!! 

 

 

[Chris Lowe]

On 05/09/2024 at 12:43, zapgaz said:

Past experience tells me that there will be no breakfast or morning cuppa in winter when the propane inevitably freezes!

Would an Origo stove be a BSS fail?My Trangia is one of the pocket bushcraft stoves, an Origo would be nice, expensive, but nice

I lived for many years in a mobile home, all of us on site had propane bottles for heating & cooking & I never had one freeze, they get frost on the outside when being used heavily.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Chris Lowe said:

I lived for many years in a mobile home, all of us on site had propane bottles for heating & cooking & I never had one freeze, they get frost on the outside when being used heavily.

 

Yes same here. Never had a propane bottle freeze on 45 years of boating.

 

I wonder if the OP is confusing butane and propane. Butane comes in blue bottles and freezes as soon as it gets chilly. Propane is in red bottles and requires sub-arctic weather to freeze, which we never get here in the UK. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Yes same here. Never had a propane bottle freeze on 45 years of boating.

 

I wonder if the OP is confusing butane and propane. Butane comes in blue bottles and freezes as soon as it gets chilly. Propane is in red bottles and requires sub-arctic weather to freeze, which we never get here in the UK. 

 

 

His spelling of Gas might suggest that as 'Gaz' cylinders are blue and are butane.

 

[zapgaz]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Yes same here. Never had a propane bottle freeze on 45 years of boating.

 

I wonder if the OP is confusing butane and propane. Butane comes in blue bottles and freezes as soon as it gets chilly. Propane is in red bottles and requires sub-arctic weather to freeze, which we never get here in the UK. 

No, 47kg propane bottles.

As someone pointed out earlier in thread, it happened to them too, and could’ve been related to regulator or pipework gunk rather than the bottle freezing.

And someone said bulk Calor bottles have an additive in winter.

 

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, zapgaz said:

No, 47kg propane bottles.

As someone pointed out earlier in thread, it happened to them too, and could’ve been related to regulator or pipework gunk rather than the bottle freezing.

And someone said bulk Calor bottles have an additive in winter.

 

 

The freezing temperature of liquid propane is so low I'd say it must have been something else dis-diagnosed as freezing. Something like minus 25c IIRC although I think Tony posted an even lower temperature. Regulators etc ceasing to work due to low temp is not the same thing as the gas itself freezing in the bottle. 

 

Propane does not need any 'additives' to prevent freezing and I have my doubts about Calor adding anything to butane too. As an LPG engineer myself I've never heard of this before. I might ask around and see if I can find any corroboration for this. I wonder if this refers to automotive LPG which I believe is a mix of butane and propane. The propane is likely to be there to give freezing resistance.

 

Edited September 7 by MtB
Fix the self-quoting!

[zapgaz]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

The freezing temperature of liquid propane is so low I'd say it must have been something else dis-diagnosed as freezing. Something like minus 25c IIRC although I think Tony posted an even lower temperature. Regulators etc ceasing to work due to low temp is not the same thing as the gas itself freezing in the bottle. 

Propane does not need any 'additives' to prevent freezing and I have my doubts about Calor adding anything to butane too. As an LPG engineer myself I've never heard of this before. I might ask around and see if I can find any corroboration for this.

I’m not an expert on the matter, all I can say is that my friend (who lives on site) could not use the cooker as there was no gas flow, and at the time, temperatures were below zero.

Oh, and there is every chance the bottles were refilled at the pump, I know she does now.

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

The propane is likely to be there to give freezing resistance.

 

I believe the reason for the mix is two-fold

1) Lower temp operation (this is why most of the small cartridge gas for hiking is now 70/30  'mixed').

2) Butane is retained as it has a higher energy content.

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

20 minutes ago, MtB said:

Something like minus 25c IIRC although I think Tony posted an even lower temperature.

 

I just took it from Google and confirmed it by a couple of sites. Even minus 25 is unlikely to allow freezing in most, if not all of the UK.

 

At least one instance quoted has the look to me of a regulator that was of insufficient capacity for the gas flow being needed, then the vaporising liquid could well cause ice to form from any water or vapour in the regulator.