Question from a total novice

[zapgaz]

Hi folks, this is my first post here after lurking for a while.

So, I am in the process of sourcing and purchasing a small boat to live on, most likely a Viking, Norman or similar, 20'-23'

This isn't some pipe dream, I've lived in vans for over a decade, and my current van which I've had for 2 years is a MK1 Fiat Scudo, and my living space is 4'6" x 6' so it would be like moving into a mansion!

My boat driving experience is almost nil, but I've been a driver for 2 decades and I've driven a lot of very iffy handling vehicles in my time, a JCB Telehandler with no training etc, so, I'm very clued up with how things move.

So.

Ive seen a boat that I'm interested in, located near Tewkesbury, but I need to get it from there to Diglis and onto a canal.

My bestie is a boat pilot for ABP and a skilled yachtswoman who has briefed me on tides etc, but I'm still nervous about attempting this journey solo.

My question is, how easy or hard is this journey going to be, and what is the system at Diglis to get from River to Canal?

Thanks in advance.

G

 

 

[nicknorman]

First of all, the passage you propose is not tidal! If the boat is on the River Avon at Tewkesbury, you will have to pass through the lock to get onto the Severn. This lock is manned, so just follow the lock keepers instructions. You must first have a Canal and River Trust licence for the boat, and you can only get that if there is a current Boat Safety Scheme certificate in force, and you have at least third party insurance.

You turn up stream on the Severn and eventually come to Diglis lock, which is also manned. I seem to recall there are traffic lights so wait for the green and/or follow the lock keepers instructions.

 

Shortly after this, you need to make the right turn into the lock mouth to take you up onto the Worcester and Birmingham canal. This lock is not manned, but there is a pontoon to moor on just before the lock, to allow you to prepare the lock. You will need a windlass to operate the lock.

The journey won’t be hard provided the river isn’t in flood. The lock keeper at Tewkesbury will be able to advise you about that.

[Rob-M]

Make sure the cruiser is narrow beam, under 7ft for the canals.

[Alan de Enfield]

55 minutes ago, zapgaz said:

So, I am in the process of sourcing and purchasing a small boat to live on, most likely a Viking, Norman or similar, 20'-23'

 

 

Just to summarise Nicks post re what you need before you can even put the boat onto the water (it is very much like a car)

 

1) The boat must be registered with the Canal & River Trust (and will have a number plate)

2) The boat must have a safety check (like an MOT) and if it is deemed safe you will get a BSSC (Boat safety Certificate cost £150-£200))

3) You must have the boat insured (like a car) a minimum of 3rd party, but if it is your home and has all your worldly goods in it then Fully Comprehensive would be advisable.

4) The boat must be licenced, for which you will have to fill out a form for C&RT (Canal & River Trust) giving your details, boat details and BSSC and Insurance details (and pay the cost)

5) You will need somewhere to moor the boat (called a home mooring), or, you pay pay extra and have a 'continuous Cruising' licence which means that you do not need a home mooring BUT you must move every few days (14 days in anyone place is the limit) and move to another place.

 

 

If you need to be in one place for work / hospital/school / family etc then you most likely will not qualify for a CC licence

 

If you do not move far enough or regularly enough your boat can be put into 'enforcement' which means if you don't start following the required conditions your boat can be seized and you made homeless.

 

Just ensure that you know exactly what is expected from you, and that you can comply, otherwise you may end upo in troupble.

Edited September 4 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The boat must be licenced, for which you will have to fill out a form for C&RT (Canal & River Trust) giving your details, boat details and BSSC and Insurance details (and pay the cost)

You can do all that online. See https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/licence-your-boat

[matty40s]

59 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

5) You will need somewhere to moor the boat (called a home mooring), or, you pay pay extra and have a 'continuous Cruising' licence which means that you do not need a home mooring BUT you must move every few days (14 days in anyone place is the limit) and move to another place.

 

If you need to be in one place for work / hospital/school / family etc then you most likely will not qualify for a CC licence

 

If you do not move far enough or regularly enough your boat can be put into 'enforcement' which means if you don't start following the required conditions your boat can be seized and you made homeless.

Alan, this bit in bold is complete and utter bollocks.

There is NO qualification, there is an implicit agreement that CRT honours local schooling limited movement in term time so long as far more range is observed during the school holidays.

The rest is a fair resume.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

Alan, this bit in bold is complete and utter bollocks.

There is NO qualification, there is an implicit agreement that CRT honours local schooling limited movement in term time so long as far more range is observed during the school holidays.

The rest is a fair resume.

 

The only 'qualification' I am aware of for a 'CC licence' is the applicant succeeding in satisfying the Board that "the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances."

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

No - Matty is correct.

 

A single parent on the K&A claimed discrimination because complying with the "CC" rules discrimnated against her childs rights to go to a single school (Travellers have the legal right for any school to find a place for their children, wherever the decide to stop)

 

Her MP took it up with C&RT and C&RT have agreed that during term times boaters do not need to move more than 3 miles each 14 days  from A to B to A to B so that the child can go to school, but in school holidays the boat is expected to move much further and more regularly.

 

This has caused a lot of animosity from other boaters who are claiming discrimination because they do not have children they have to move.

 

It got quite complex and that is why I didn't mention it but suggested that the OP investigates what he needs to do to comply.

 

There are several letters going to & fro from C&RT to the MP and eventually a powerpoint presentation was put together showing what C&RT will accept from boaters with school age children.

This then antagonised boaters who have land based work in the area & who use the same waterway and moor alongside boaters with childen, but because they work in the area they have to move.

 

 

One of the pages demonstrating what C&RT will accept, and part of one of letters from C&RT to the MP Michele Donelan

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4 by Alan de Enfield

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Ffs, zapgas has simply asked about a river and canal transit!

who cares about the K&A?

can’t we assume (for a change) his boat is legal and his intentions are good?

 

 

[Graham Davis]

And there seems to be no relevance in mentioning children when the OP has stated they have been living in a space 4'6" x 6'!

[blackrose]

Perhaps I missed it but I didn't see anything in the OP's post about continuous cruising. The assumption that's what zapgas is intending to do may be correct of course, or he/she may be getting a mooring somewhere. 

 

Although the OP has lived in road vehicles before, I'd want to make them aware that many GRP cruisers aren't well insulated and may not have heating systems that are reliable enough for living aboard. If you can't keep warm in winter it's likely to end up as a pipe dream whatever your previous experience, so I'd make sure whatever you buy is properly insulated and you understand the pros/cons of different heating systems.

 

6 hours ago, zapgaz said:

My bestie is a boat pilot for ABP and a skilled yachtswoman who has briefed me on tides etc, but I'm still nervous about attempting this journey solo.

 

Your 'bestie" is a professional pilot and has briefed you on tides for a non-tidal journey?

 

Since you're nervous and she's your "bestie" can't you get her to help you for the first journey and perhaps give you some tips on single-handling the boat so you're not taking chunks out of the GRP as you enter locks, etc.

Edited September 4 by blackrose

[zapgaz]

15 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Perhaps I missed it but I didn't see anything in the OP's post about continuous cruising. The assumption that's what zapgas is intending to do may be correct of course, or he/she may be getting a mooring somewhere. 

 

Although the OP has lived in road vehicles before, I'd want to make them aware that many GRP cruisers aren't well insulated and may not have heating systems that are reliable enough for living aboard. If you can't keep warm in winter it's likely to end up as a pipe dream whatever your previous experience, so I'd make sure whatever you buy is properly insulated and you understand the pros/cons of different heating systems.

 

 

Your 'bestie" is a professional pilot and has briefed you on tides for a non-tidal journey?

 

Since you're nervous and she's your "bestie" can't you get her to help you for the first journey and perhaps give you some tips on single-handling the boat so you're not taking chunks out of the GRP as you enter locks, etc.

I did post a reply earlier, I'm a new member and my posts need to be approved!

I'll clear up a few points.

I used the wrong terminology when I said tides, what I actually meant was the way water flows, rainfall, levels and tides also.

I do have kids, but they are beyond school age, I'm in my early fifties.

Thanks for advice regarding insulation and heating. I've done minus 10 in this van with nothing than some bubble foil and a layer of carpet, and a small boat wood burner of course, extra blankets in case it goes out overnight!

I've done half a dozen van conversions, and helped out on friends, and my bestie lives on a 35 foot yacht which she's doing a complete rebuild on, and believe me, I'm an information sponge when I watch her at work!

And yes, I Intend to CC the waterways.

I only take on temp work, and if for instance I found 4 weeks work in Oxford, I could stay 2 weeks at each end of town, then move along to Birmingham.

I don't have expensive habits, and live cheaply.

Low emission zones popping up will make it impossible to stay on the road as the cost of a compliant vehicle is astronomical to purchase and own.

That's before you even think about having a physical address for v5 and insurance.

And owning a car has made me bone idle, I've already bought a cargo bike.

Sounds like a short hop up the Severn should be doable, it's just a long way from where I want to be.

Aim to give the K+A a swerve anyhows, I've heard things get bitter down that way, and after spending 25 years as an outsider in Kernow, I'm done with drama!

 

 

[zapgaz]

I wasn't being cocky about knowing about van and boat builds.

I know that insulation will be crucial, and that's very good that you pointed it out.

It's bloody miserable in cold, damp spaces.

[Tony Brooks]

6 hours ago, zapgaz said:

I only take on temp work, and if for instance I found 4 weeks work in Oxford, I could stay 2 weeks at each end of town, then move along to Birmingham.

 

I get what you are saying and doing so would almost certainly "satisfy" CaRT, but:

 

Oxford is am example where that might fall down. It is another honey pot site for those trying to live on the boat and not move so CaRT and there are long stretches of official long term moorings and also no mooring here because of water voles. It is a dead end as far as CaRT are concerned but does lead onto the Thames and its backwaters. Mooring on the Thames is free for 24 hours at a very few official EA sites and will require another boat licence, at paid for sites owned by local landowners (think a minimum of £5 a night up to perhaps £20 a night at Henley during special events), and around Oxford those sites where the landowners don't bother to charge seem to be rammed full all the time. I think the CaRT temporary moorings near central Oxford are limited to less than 14 days (I think they may be 48 hours). You will find canal moorings further out of Oxford but then you have transport issues, luckily there is a half decent bus service parallel to the canal plus a railway service. You could make things work at Oxford but probably only be travelling from the suburbs or further afield.

[Onewheeler]

Oxford CRT waters are a mix of 24, 48h,7 and 14 day limits with many unusable due to collapsed edging stone. The Thames is full of stationary boats, some of which haven't moved for years (how do they get rid of toilet waste?) Going out on the canal beyond thrupp it's usually easy to find somewhere quiet, and you don't usually have to walk far to find public transport.

[nicknorman]

One advantage of a cruiser is shallow draft, making mooring easier in shallow places unsuitable for a narrowboat.

[BilgePump]

Welcome to the forum zapgaz. Nick has answered your actual question but I'll throw in a couple of thoughts that I'm sure as a van-dweller you're already familiar with.

 

One big problem is that a lot of 20' cruisers like the Norman won't have standing headroom or WC in own closet. Some may. I could stand up through the cabin in a Buckingham 20', just, but am only 5'6". Anyone taller would have to stoop. The Norman 22/24/24 or Viking 23 would give far more chance of being able to stand up in them and a bit of privacy for the loo but narrow enough to access the full canal network. If budget allows for an even bigger boat in still reasonable condition and set-up then I would go for that. Licence cost will not be a big difference.

 

Winter nights on a GRP boat can be, errr, challenging, but can be done. Spent a week on a lake once with it well subzero. Totally frozen in for three days in the middle. Uninsulated 20' boat, no heating other than paraffin lamp, no electric. Ended up looking like the Michelin man with loads of ski and hiking clothing layers, then slept in all that plus a heavy sleeping bag with a duvet. Two pairs of gloves and two hats. Was a kind of adventure but after a week, it was about enough. However, with proper insulation, heating, home comforts etc, a GRP can be a cramped but cosy round year boat as some people on here could attest. 

[dmr]

Something important not yet mentioned,

Breaking down on a river is potentially serious and a new unfamiliar boat is an extra risk.

Is it well maintained? Has it been used recently or stood for ages? Stale petrol (assuming its petrol)?.

 

Do lots of checks, run the engine for a good while with several stops and starts, and ideally a few starts from cold, and if at all possible take a second experienced person with you for the river section. Check that you have an anchor and a longish pole/boat-hook of some sort.

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, dmr said:

Something important not yet mentioned,

Breaking down on a river is potentially serious and a new unfamiliar boat is an extra risk.

Is it well maintained? Has it been used recently or stood for ages? Stale petrol (assuming its petrol)?.

 

Do lots of checks, run the engine for a good while with several stops and starts, and ideally a few starts from cold, and if at all possible take a second experienced person with you for the river section. Check that you have an anchor and a longish pole/boat-hook of some sort.

 

In addition to all the above good advice, pick a busy time for first river trip(s), to maximise the chances of some passing traffic coming along and giving assistance/a tow in the event of a breakdown. 

[zapgaz]

Lots of helpful advice here, very useful for me, and others who are likely to tune in later.

I have given breaking down on the river some consideration, and have concluded that I don't want to start off with that level of excitement, and, I'm now only searching for boats already on a canal. Breaking down on a canal is more of an inconvenience than outright dangerous!

My current headroom is less than 5', standing headroom while cooking will be a priority, luckily, I'm only 5'6" too.

Went to look at a Nauticus 27 yesterday, on the Trent/Mersey, lovely looking inside, but the exterior required a shedload of work, and likely needed lifting, and the price wasn't matching the required input!

Other than Gumtree, Marketplace and Apollo Duck, are there any other sites with boats at sensible prices?

 

 

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, zapgaz said:

Went to look at a Nauticus 27 yesterday, on the Trent/Mersey, lovely looking inside, but the exterior required a shedload of work, and likely needed lifting, and the price wasn't matching the required input!

 

Often the case with private sales advertised on the three places you list (which are the main places to look). Similarly though, there are bargains to be had by sellers who genuinely just want to get rid, as opposed to think their heaps are worth the same as one in top nick! But just being out and about viewing boats, visiting yards etc is the way to chat with people, hear about boats that might be on sale 'soon' and generally getting on the inside track. Keep it up and keep posting! 

 

 

 

P.S. check out ebay too!

 

 

[LadyG]

Im not sure about sensible prices, boats have a habit of presenting 

one with unexpected expence so best keep a few hundred readily available.

I dont if anyone has mentioned the generation of power.

1) propulsion .... i would be looking for an inboard diesel.

They are not as common as outboards but have several advantages.

2) electricity, you need a starter battery for most engines. You will also need a domestic battery, or maybe several. Solar panels are just not going to prime those domestic batterues in winter.

3) Heating, is essential for health and comfort, sleeping in a cold damp atmosphere is downright unhealthy.  

Good luck with your searches.

Edited September 5 by LadyG

[Mike Hurley]

Could be worth posting what your budget is along with boat requirements/preferences, desired area, someone here may know of something or see it on their travels.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, zapgaz said:

................and likely needed lifting,

 

Are you planning on having a survey ? (you will need one if your boat is over 25 or 30 years old (depending on which insureres you use) if you want fully comp insurance. So a lift out and inspectuon will be required by the insurers anyway.

 

Alternatively, if you can afford to lose the boat and its contents, you can insure Third Part only, then you will not require a surveyors inspection.

[zapgaz]

I'm currently looking at boats below 4k, I've been browsing and getting a feel for last couple of years, both inland and coastal craft, and seriously searching for last 3 weeks. I think for what I require, that budget is doable.

Propulsion I've also looked into at depth, petrol inboard doesn't really appeal, diesel inboard appeals because at a push, I could rebuild an engine, but an outdrive could spell doom were it to develop faults. I could fix one, no problem, but it would likely be an out of the water job which could start to rack up bills.

So, left with outboard as my first choice. Easy enough to access, remove, repair or replace.

Sourcing petrol would be a faff at worst, but a boat with outboard could be used with an electric outboard in future, another topic I've looked into at great depth, and continue to do so.

Have no need for shore power. Fridge, microwave and TV would be of no use to me whatsoever, so my power demands are almost non existent.

Currently use a single Trangia stove to cook, an oven would be nice, and "the word on the street ' is that it is now permitted to refil gas bottles on the forecourt LPG pump.

Heating is something I'm very familiar with, having used Ebers/Webasto/Chinese diesel heaters (top tip, run on Kerosene) Propex and solid fuel. I'm currently undecided on that one.

My 'new' bike is more than capable of carrying cylinders, wood, supplies etc, so.

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are you planning on having a survey ? (you will need one if your boat is over 25 or 30 years old (depending on which insureres you use) if you want fully comp insurance. So a lift out and inspectuon will be required by the insurers anyway.

 

Alternatively, if you can afford to lose the boat and its contents, you can insure Third Part only, then you will not require a surveyors inspection.

I've had basic-boat on my bookmarks for last couple of years, and I think I'll be going with them, third party cover only.

Won't be doing a survey, I'll take my chances, and if it goes wrong, only me to blame.

I've been offloading my possessions for some time now, I only own what I need and live a minimalistic life free from chintz and tat!