Review my fitout plan - Lights

[dmr]

Its quite rare to see people sitting out on socialising on a cruiser stern, dunno why, this is just an observation.

Pram hoods are horrible things, a third rate attempt at giving a cruiser/semitrad some of the advantages of a trad? 😀

 

Having lived on a trad for many years, and as we are now getting older and have a very old dog, I can see some attractions to a semi-trad but on balance I would still very much go trad (with back cabin and engine room).

 

This year we have seen a few new "traditional style" boats with a semi trad stern. Not sure if they had a proper engine room, I think one did, I suppose this still works though you would have to loose the back cabin.

 

Have spent a few days in Stone with another forum member watching the boats go past, and the boats that get noticed are the trad jobbies with portholes and a proper engine room etc. A Bolinder really gets attention but thats probably many steps too far for the OP 😀

[Paul C]

Cruiser stern with big pram hood will be a complete PITA. Smaller pram hood on a semi trad more tolerable. While you have the choice, choose wisely. At least try out living with a pram hood or listen to those who have.

[Arthur Marshall]

23 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

Assuming a liveaboard lifestyle and say 50 to 100 cruising days a year with an average 5 miles (3 to 4 hours of cruising) I think towpath lifestyle considerations take priority

If that's all you are going to do,  I, quite seriously, don't understand why you want a boat at all. What's the point? You're hardly moving and apparently don't want to, except presumably to try to keep within the cc guidelines, except on 5 miles a week you're unlikely to. You're planning to cruise less than I do, with all the increasing expense and endless maintenance of a boat. Alternatively, just get a permanent mooring online, then you wouldn't have to move at all. Or a static caravan, which you can fettle to what you want.

Mind you,  if you only travel 5 miles in 3 hours of cruising,  you'll get grumbled at by the forum members queuing up behind you!

[cheesegas]

38 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

One design tweak I am planning is a two gas bottle bench to port on the side of the galley gas hob and to open to starboard which provides space for my steamer chair in summer. The gas bottle locker bench will also act as a step up to the cabin top.

 

Assuming a liveaboard lifestyle and say 50 to 100 cruising days a year with an average 5 miles (3 to 4 hours of cruising) I think towpath lifestyle considerations take priority.

I have a that gas locker design on my boat and it's much better for me than a front gas locker. Shallower, easier to change bottles and it acts as a handy step up to the roof, I've painted the lid in anti slip stuff. Also easier to strip and re paint when it gets rusty! There's a handy space on the front deck for my generator, hidden right up in the bow.

 

 

1 hour ago, MtB said:

Same here. I once spent a truly miserable 11 hours steering a cruiser stern in foul weather - wind, horizontal rain and freezing cold - (towing a broken down boat back to base). I was five feet from a lovely warm dry interior the whole time but unable to use it, which left its mark on my psyche. Trad sterns for me too for comfy bad weather cruising, always! 

I seem to remember we've had this conversation before - it's all down to personal preference. When I was on a trad boat for a week, I hated climbing over the engine box to get in and out; open the hatch, open the rear doors, take off backpack, stagger inside, open door to cabin, turn around, pull backpack through. 

 

On my boat I can quickly walk through the boat (with a small backpack on no less!) from stern to bow which is also useful when single handing. I live on mine year round so I'm probably in and out of it more than you, hence the difference in preference. I also frequently wild moor on the Thames/Stort, so easy access into the boat via both ends is important, I can't rely on just entering/exiting via one end, which is why a reverse layout is pointless for me.

 

You prioritise comfort while cruising, I prioritise easy access, we have different uses. Personally I've never had an issue with being outside in the weather - would definitely be better to be inside, but hardly a deal breaker for the practicality of a non-hobbit-sized back door.

 

(and yes, if it was longer there would be space for an engine room, but mine's only 45' and the trad I was on was 40')

 

  

16 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its quite rare to see people sitting out on socialising on a cruiser stern, dunno why, this is just an observation.

Pram hoods are horrible things, a third rate attempt at giving a cruiser/semitrad some of the advantages of a trad? 😀

 

Have spent a few days in Stone with another forum member watching the boats go past, and the boats that get noticed are the trad jobbies with portholes and a proper engine room etc. A Bolinder really gets attention but thats probably many steps too far for the OP 😀

Different people do different things - walk through an area with more liveaboards and it's common for some reason. I put a folding table outside and eat dinner sitting on the cruiser stern benches frequently in summer. I also put a plank with a vice on it across the handrails to make a handy outdoor workbench for carpentry/repairs etc when there's no room to do it between boat and towpath. Again, not important for a non-liveaboard as you probably have a garden or space at your marina/mooring to do work.

 

My boat is definitely not made with attention being noticed in mind - it's a home which has the awesome feature of being able to move to where and when I want.

 

I do agree that pram hoods aren't good though, always in the way when folded down and somehow also in the way when up.

 

  

10 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If that's all you are going to do,  I, quite seriously, don't understand why you want a boat at all. What's the point?

I don't understand this weird attitude, it's rather gatekeeping of boat ownership. I move around 100 days a year, I'd like to move more but unfortunately I have to to allocation a significant amount of time to work to pay for things as I'm not retired. Usual pattern is a 6hr ish move every 1-2 weeks, maybe a long couple of days to get nearer to a jobsite if it suits. Or if there's somewhere nice I want to moor, I'll do a bigger move. And then I have a month or so of downtime over summer when I'll move every day on a long cruise on the Thames or something.

 

Please let me know how you see that the above makes owning a boat pointless? I get to see and spend time in lots of different places I normally wouldn't, and above all moving the boat is fun!

 

Tried living in a marina when I bought the boat and I hated it. All of the downsides of owning a boat and none of the advantages. Sometimes I put mine in a marina if I know I won't be at the boat much because of work.

Edited September 3 by cheesegas

[David Mack]

37 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

One design tweak I am planning is a two gas bottle bench to port on the side of the galley gas hob and to open to starboard which provides space for my steamer chair in summer. The gas bottle locker bench will also act as a step up to the cabin top.

It used to be quite common on cruiser sterned boats to have a 2 bottle gas locker against the back of the cabin on one side and an offset door into the cabin on the other. The gas locker could be used both as a seat and a step up onto the roof.

I can't quite decide whether your suggestion is a sensible use of space, or whether a locker projecting 3 feet or so back from the cabin on one side with nothing fixed on the other side would look a bit odd - there's a strong of symmetry (or almost symmetry) with most boat external layouts.

[cheesegas]

Just now, David Mack said:

It used to be quite common on cruiser sterned boats to have a 2 bottle gas locker against the back of the cabin on one side and an offset door into the cabin on the other. The gas locker could be used both as a seat and a step up onto the roof.

I can't quite decide whether your suggestion is a sensible use of space, or whether a locker projecting 3 feet or so back from the cabin on one side with nothing fixed on the other side would look a bit odd - there's a strong of symmetry (or almost symmetry) with most boat external layouts.

This is exactly what I have - I don't really care about it looking visually odd and asymmetrical as for me, practicality far outweighs it. The gas locker protrudes out a couple inches more than the diameter of a 13kg Calor bottle. I have external stairs which save space inside but are difficult to maintain/paint as the underside of the steps are almost inaccessible! Some say they're dangerous in case you fall down but in 4 years, neither me, my partner nor any visitors have had a problem or even stumbled.

[Gybe Ho]

4 hours ago, cheesegas said:

Will you be heading for a mooring at this point or CC’ing? 
 

If you won’t be on a mooring with good road access and electricity, I’d suggest staying in the boatyard as long as possible. Fitouts on the towpath are very very difficult

 

 

I would be keen to get afloat even so I recognize the first 6 months on the cut would be dominated by an incremental fitout. The Journey with Jono blog was an inspiration, he bought a collapsible camping kitchen bench and pitched a hiking tent in the forward end of he accommodation as his bedroom. Then he motored off down the Cut and moored next to the largest wood retailer in the Midlands and loaded sheets of 8x4 over the fence, Jono was the definitive hardcore towpath fitout. I cannot match that.

 

I think the answer for me is to plan the fitout so that once the floor is down with ballast I never feel more than 2 months away from a possible launch date of my choosing. Given a two month launch window I might well slide the launch date forward in time when I feel each month of fitout ashore is worth two on the tow path.

 

For example I would be happy to start cruising with a shower tray & screen fitted plus a gulper pump. Hot & cold running water to the shower would be an optional luxury that I can workaround with my old yachting solar shower bag filled with hotwater from a kettle. Window liners, those can wait for a year or two.

 

And to your main question, CCing or mooring? To start it would be limited CCing, I think the old criteria was one new parish a fortnight.

 

I have a good set of 18v power tools and batteries.

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

have external stairs which save space inside but are difficult to maintain/paint as the underside of the steps are almost inaccessible

 

Some boats with external stairs set into the cruiser stern are designed, so the stairs lift out for access and maintenance, but I expect they would be rather heavy.

[David Mack]

And external stairs are usually too low to be drained through the hull side, so rain which falls on them necessarily drains to the bilges.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, David Mack said:

And external stairs are usually too low to be drained through the hull side, so rain which falls on them necessarily drains to the bilges.

Mine drained into a washing up bowl with a bilge pump in it.

[cheesegas]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And external stairs are usually too low to be drained through the hull side, so rain which falls on them necessarily drains to the bilges.

Mine has a drain hole and hose which goes to the little tub under the stern gland with a bilge pump in it. Nice dry bilges! I've also drilled an overflow hole in the side of the bottom step below the level of the door so if the hose gets clogged, it empties into the bilge.

[Gybe Ho]

31 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Mind you,  if you only travel 5 miles in 3 hours of cruising,  you'll get grumbled at by the forum members queuing up behind you!

 

 

If I am a serial hybrid I will hear the grumbles and move over.

 

5 miles x 100 days = One quarter of the network.

 

5 miles a week should be well over the minimum CRT CC requirement surely. The annual requirement is only a total geographic range of 26 miles.

 

Anyhow from your posts I got the impression you have been on the Macclesfield for months. Poynton Toplock is my first cruising destination, I might catch you up.

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

2 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

Anyhow from your posts I got the impression you have been on the Macclesfield for months. Poynton Toplock is my first cruising destination, I might catch you up.

Well, yes. I'm now a leisure boater with a permanent mooring. I spend about three months a year cruising. 3 or 4 hours a day covers 12 miles on average.

Trying to CC by second guessing what CRT will consider acceptable is asking for trouble. The idea of CCing was to accommodate boaters on a genuine cruise, not those who just want to towpath sit and avoid paying for a mooring. I suspect by the time you get on the water (assuming you ever do), policing this will be very much nastier and CCing even genuinely will, sadly, be vastly more expensive, largely because of those who don't.

Anyway, I hope your windows work out well. The real world beckons.

[Francis Herne]

Pram hoods are all very well until you encounter bridges and/or low-hanging trees, and then they become a faff.

 

I've noticed going down towards large rivers (or the Bridgewater) where such things aren't a concern the proportion of hoods increases noticeably.

 

Aside from that they're not much good for actually cruising in poor weather, the windows fog up or get covered in droplets.

 

One non-obvious thing to consider is access to the engine - on a trad (engine rooms aside) it's usually under the step and accessible from inside the boat in the dry, with the belts and filters mounted on the front where you can get to them.

On most cruiser sterns you'll be spending a lot of time lying flat on the deck beams, or crouched in an oily corner of the bilge, trying to dislocate your wrist to change belts wedged against the bulkhead.

A semi-trad or 'trad cruiser'/'semi-cruiser' with fixed bench lockers that prevent you from getting at the sides is even worse.

 

Edited September 3 by Francis Herne

[Hudds Lad]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

Its quite rare to see people sitting out on socialising on a cruiser stern, dunno why, this is just an observation.

Only time i've seen them used this way, bar one, has been on hire boats.

The one exception was a private boat we moored behind at Hawkesbury, they spent the next hour or two scowling into our boat from their cruiser stern until it got dim and they went indoors  Not our fault they left a 58ft gap between them and the next boat, suppose we could have gone through the stop lock and looked on the Coventry side for a mooring, but it was getting on in the day and we'd had enough so sat in the saloon smiling at them  

[Gybe Ho]

23 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Trying to CC by second guessing what CRT will consider acceptable is asking for trouble.

 

 

No guessing is needed, the annual 26 mile geographic range is well known. As to 2-week moves, I understand the original CRT monitoring regime was by parish sized zones, hence a 5 miles a week move is more than enough.

 

23 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The idea of CCing was to accommodate boaters on a genuine cruise

 

 

A CCers definition of a genuine cruise differs from a marina dwellers annual cruise. 100 days @ 5 miles a day would get me from London to Lancaster, is that not genuine enough.

 

23 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I suspect by the time you get on the water (assuming you ever do), policing this will be very much nastier and CCing even genuinely will, sadly, be vastly more expensive, largely because of those who don't.

 

 

From what I read here the CRT will be busy impounding multi-month overstayers, not someone like me who stops 100m short of the parish boundary.

Edited September 3 by Gybe Ho

[cheesegas]

3 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

Only time i've seen them used this way, bar one, has been on hire boats.

I must be the exception. I use it a lot to eat out on the back deck (a little folding table is big enough for two sitting on the benches on my boat), or using it as a workbench.

  

1 minute ago, Francis Herne said:

One non-obvious thing to consider is access to the engine - on a trad (engine rooms aside) it's usually under the step and accessible from inside the boat in the dry, with the belts and filters mounted on the front where you can get to them.

On most cruiser sterns you'll be spending a lot of time lying flat on the deck beams, or crouched in an oily corner of the bilge, trying to dislocate your wrist to change belts wedged against the bulkhead.

A semi-trad or 'trad cruiser'/'semi-cruiser') with fixed lockers preventing you getting at the sides is even worse.

Semi trads are the worst for access, I agree. However, on cruisers with small back decks I agree, but on mine there's about a foot between the front of the engine and the bulkhead. Never had a problem with access other than de-rusting the underside of the external stairs. I can easily sit on the engine and access most things. Changing engine mounts is also simpler, you can just put a scaff pole across the gunnels to support one end of the engine.

 

Some trads without an engine room are worse - calorifier, inverter, Webasto and gubbins screwed to the wall above the engine, meaning one side of it is totally inaccessible!

[Arthur Marshall]

1 minute ago, Gybe Ho said:

No guessing is needed, the annual 26 mile geographic range is well known. As to 2-week moves, I understand the original CRT monitoring regieme was by parish sized zones, hence a 5 miles a week more than enough

Could've fooled me. What is well known is often rubbish. You're relying on YouTube idiots again.And the parish concept was BW's  and died long before CRT took over and was always largely myth - there were just so few doing it nobody cared.. Get it into your head there are no mileage parameters, it's the intention that matters, and CRT can change their criteria for acceptability whenever they like.

If you're really going from London to Lancaster, yes, it's a cruise. If you're pottering between Macclesfield and Bollington, round and round and round, no it isn't.

[David Mack]

53 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

5 miles a week should be well over the minimum CRT CC requirement surely. The annual requirement is only a total geographic range of 26 miles.

There is no set minimum, and a range of 26 miles is one of a number different criteria which have been bandied about in the past. As a CCer your obligation is to "satisfy the Board", and whether in any particular case the "Board" is reasonable in determining whether or not it is "satisfied" is a matter which can only be resolved in a court of law, and legal cases to date have not provided a precise or binding answer.

That said, moving 5 miles every week in the same direction should be more than enough to get you off CRT enforcement's radar - there are more obvious cases of offending which will be their priority. On the other hand, constantly shuffling between the same handful of places no more than 5 miles apart will soon see you subject to their attention.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, cheesegas said:

I must be the exception. I use it a lot to eat out on the back deck (a little folding table is big enough for two sitting on the benches on my boat), or using it as a workbench.

  

Semi trads are the worst for access, I agree. However, on cruisers with small back decks I agree, but on mine there's about a foot between the front of the engine and the bulkhead. Never had a problem with access other than de-rusting the underside of the external stairs. I can easily sit on the engine and access most things. Changing engine mounts is also simpler, you can just put a scaff pole across the gunnels to support one end of the engine.

 

Some trads without an engine room are worse - calorifier, inverter, Webasto and gubbins screwed to the wall above the engine, meaning one side of it is totally inaccessible!

 

I agree that with a diesel engine under the stern access is pretty terrible with semi-trads -- though a trad with a stern engine can be just as bad (or worse), except drier in the rain. With a cruiser stern you can lift all the deck boards and get to everything underneath, which is one reason many hire firms like them. A trad with an engine room is undoubtedly the best if that's what you want in a boat and can afford the wasted space.

 

The semi-trad problem doesn't apply with a hybrid boat like mine; under the big central hatch between the lockers is an open access area, surrounded by "stuff" which is all easily accessible by dropping down the hatch and sitting on the motor cover -- generator to front, heating and calorifier and accumulators and plumbing to port (under the lockers), electrical cupboard and other gubbins to starboard (under the lockers). All very easy to get to, nothing hidden, you just swivel round and it's all in front of you. Almost like somebody had thought about it... 😉 

 

Yes if it's raining you're outside, but OTOH a trad with this layout wouldn't work because the top of the generator is not far below deck level so there's no way to have a step-down-- but even if it's raining there's rarely any need to go down there since there's pretty much nothing needing regular attention.

 

(OK, the generator needs a service every 250 hours of runtime, which looks like being about 2 year intervals for me...)

 

In other words, not *all* semi-trads have an access problem... 😉 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

The semi-trad problem doesn't apply with a hybrid boat like mine; under the big central hatch between the lockers is an open access area, surrounded by "stuff" which is all easily accessible by dropping down the hatch and sitting on the motor cover -- generator to front, heating and calorifier and accumulators and plumbing to port (under the lockers), electrical cupboard and other gubbins to starboard (under the lockers). All very easy to get to, nothing hidden, you just swivel round and it's all in front of you. Almost like somebody had thought about it... 😉 

 

Yes if it's raining you're outside, but OTOH a trad with this layout wouldn't work because the top of the generator is not far below deck level so there's no way to have a step-down-- but even if it's raining there's rarely any need to go down there since there's pretty much nothing needing regular attention.

 

(OK, the generator needs a service every 250 hours of runtime, which looks like being about 2 year intervals for me...)

 

In other words, not *all* semi-trads have an access problem... 😉 

And in other words not everyone has over £300K plus, to spend on a Narrowboat like me and in reality there’s no need to, to get the benefits of being on and enjoying the canals, please live in the real world of normality. Wink Wink. 

 

[Gybe Ho]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

(OK, the generator needs a service every 250 hours of runtime, which looks like being about 2 year intervals for me...)

 

 

Generator servicing every "2 years", that often! 😀

 

At 5 solar powered miles a day during intensive voyaging I was hoping for 30 generator hours a year. Does engine oil turn sour after 8 years?

7 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

And the parish concept was BW's  and died long before CRT took over and was always largely myth - there were just so few doing it nobody cared.

 

 

What a shame I quite liked the notion of getting a biblical reward for crossing a parish boundary.

 

Are CRT licenses bar or Q coded these days to aid surveillance now the Parish beat patrolmen are no more?

[nicknorman]

9 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Are CRT licenses bar or Q coded these days to aid surveillance now the Parish beat patrolmen are no more?

No, but by law you must display the CRT (or BW) assigned index number. The index number is linked to your licence, which by law you also have to display, although in reality CRT don’t seem fussed. The towpath is patrolled by iPad-wearing people who log boat positions by their index number. Apparently the entire network is patrolled at least every 2 weeks.

[Puffling]

20 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

[...]What a shame I quite liked the notion of getting a biblical reward for crossing a parish boundary.

 

Are CRT licenses bar or Q coded these days to aid surveillance now the Parish beat patrolmen are no more?

A boater I spoke to seriously believed CRT would eventual introduce licence plate readers at regular intervals along most canals. He thought this would reduce costs by making licence checkers redundant.

Edited September 3 by Puffling

[IanD]

12 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

And in other words not everyone has over £300K plus, to spend on a Narrowboat like me and in reality there’s no need to, to get the benefits of being on and enjoying the canals, please live in the real world of normality. Wink Wink. 

 

I'm perfectly well aware of that -- but the OP is talking about having a series hybrid, sonthe same should apply... 🙂

12 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Generator servicing every "2 years", that often! 😀

 

At 5 solar powered miles a day during intensive voyaging I was hoping for 30 generator hours a year. Does engine oil turn sour after 8 years?

 

What a shame I quite liked the notion of getting a biblical reward for crossing a parish boundary.

 

Are CRT licenses bar or Q coded these days to aid surveillance now the Parish beat patrolmen are no more?

If you think 30 generator hours a year is realistic, I have a bridge you might want to buy... 😉

Edited September 4 by IanD