Diesel propulsion splits - new advice from HMRC?

[MtB]

1 hour ago, StevieN said:

Once again for the hard of understanding, it is not up to the marina to dictate how much you declare.

 

What a charmer you must be in real life! 

 

Strange how triggered some folk get about trivia. 

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What utter rubbish - the boat yard does not have to sell at any 'split', or even sell fuel at all.

 

If I want to sell beer in half-pints only that is entirely my perogative, if you want a pint glass then go elsewhere.

 

I'm selling red diesel at 60/40 only, so only those who intend to make that declaration can buy from me . if you want to make a 70/30 declaration find a suppler who will accept that.

 

I am only selling Fosters lager - if you want 4X, then find someone who sells 4X.

It's very hard when I had put the fuel in the tank already Alan, I had been sold it and my declaration was for pure domestic use. It was summer the long hot one, I only wanted the diesel to heat water so my declaration was correct and legal. They backed down when they realised I wasn't going to back down and was going to call HMRC, it helps if Simon a mate and boat owner works there

[Paul C]

Here's an analogy, hopefully for the hard of understanding:

 

I go into a service station and want to buy a small carton (500ml) of milk. WHSmiths and M&S Food both sell milk, but WHSmiths only have 2 litre bottles. They are both able to sell milk, and neither is obligated to sell me 500ml. I can't make WHSmiths sell me 500ml of milk and if I ask if they can open a 2 litre bottle and decant some into my cornflakes at the 500ml price, they'll say no (but will happily sell 2 litres, at its price). M&S aren't obligated to sell me milk either, but they will sell a 500ml carton to me - because they have decided to offer 500ml cartons.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Here's an analogy, hopefully for the hard of understanding:

 

I go into a service station and want to buy a small carton (500ml) of milk. WHSmiths and M&S Food both sell milk, but WHSmiths only have 2 litre bottles. They are both able to sell milk, and neither is obligated to sell me 500ml. I can't make WHSmiths sell me 500ml of milk and if I ask if they can open a 2 litre bottle and decant some into my cornflakes at the 500ml price, they'll say no (but will happily sell 2 litres, at its price). M&S aren't obligated to sell me milk either, but they will sell a 500ml carton to me - because they have decided to offer 500ml cartons.

We are talking tax here not goods so it doesn't work, also if the marina hasn't priced the pump up they have a problem. The lad serving me didn't know the cost so its all down to them.

[David Mack]

On 23/08/2024 at 13:54, IanD said:

Though recently I've been using Google Maps which will show you all the filling stations near your route together with how many minutes detour it will take for the ones off-route. Usually you can find a much cheaper station than the services with a detour of 5mins or less... 🙂 

I use the Petrol Prices app which h gives me the prices of petrol or diesel within a 5 mile radius of where I am or a location I can specify. All the big chains seem to update their prices with the app every couple of days.

I paid 134.9 p/litre at Sainsburys in Aylesbury on Saturday.

[Ronaldo47]

On 23/08/2024 at 20:08, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

Following various posts about Red Diesel being allowd to be used by Churchill following the 'little ships part the Dunquerqe recovery I been having a look to see what I can find.

 

I can find no specific reference to where boats are mentioned, but 'off-road' vehicles were allowed to use 'reduced duty fuel' in 1934.

It was not until 1961 that a red dye was added that we had "Red Diesel"

 

A brief summary :

 

History of Red Diesel

• 1921 – Customs Duty was charged on imported motor spirits till 1921, which was then abolished and replaced by vehicle license & excise duty. Fire engines, road rollers, and ambulances were exempt.
• 1934 – Exemptions were given to cleaning vehicles ( road & gully), and off-road vehicles duty was reduced.
• 1935 –Road vehicles were barred from using rebated fuels.
• Rail transport and off-road vehicle usage were promoted by offering subsidised rates.
• Categories introduced for legal use.
• 1947 – Industrial vehicles, such as tractors, cranes, etc., were given a reduction in excise duties.
• 1950 – The eligibility was extended to off-road vehicles operating near farms or in woodlands.
• 1952 – clear legislation was introduced to make sure that no off-road vehicles except those already stated in policy were to be allowed rebates.
• 1959 – Further extension in the list of eligible vehicles. The marking of fuel was started to be identified as rebated fuel.
• 1961 – Red dye and other chemical markers were introduced and were made a requirement for identifying rebated fuel. This was followed by an expansion in the vehicle exemption list.

 

 

Diesel might not have been dyed until 1961, but I understand that dye was added to petrol for non-civilian use during WWII, with a fines for any motorist found with dyed fuel in their tank. Apparently it didn't take long for spivs to discover that the carbon filters used in gas masks were excellent for removing the dye!

[NB Alnwick]

I haven't read through the whole thread so will apologise if I repeat something that has been said already.

In our case, the 40/60 split (60% propulsion) is probably correct. So I am not concerned by the decision taken by Aquavista to specify three choices.

That said, one can still decide on a free choice - for example if one wants a 90/10 split, just buy 90 litres at 100% domestic and then buy another 10 litres at 100% propulsion. This would appear to be a simple solution that satisfies the vendor and the consumer.

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by NB Alnwick

[MtB]

Excellent solution Graham! 

 

P.S. Presumably ringing is cancelled tonight?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Diesel might not have been dyed until 1961, but I understand that dye was added to petrol for non-civilian use during WWII, with a fines for any motorist found with dyed fuel in their tank. Apparently it didn't take long for spivs to discover that the carbon filters used in gas masks were excellent for removing the dye!

The forces still had dyed petrol when I was in, diesel was white however 

[Momac]

Looks like the price of red is moving in the right direction this week. 

[StevieN]

On 25/08/2024 at 19:29, Paul C said:

Here's an analogy, hopefully for the hard of understanding:

 

I go into a service station and want to buy a small carton (500ml) of milk. WHSmiths and M&S Food both sell milk, but WHSmiths only have 2 litre bottles. They are both able to sell milk, and neither is obligated to sell me 500ml. I can't make WHSmiths sell me 500ml of milk and if I ask if they can open a 2 litre bottle and decant some into my cornflakes at the 500ml price, they'll say no (but will happily sell 2 litres, at its price). M&S aren't obligated to sell me milk either, but they will sell a 500ml carton to me - because they have decided to offer 500ml cartons.

Not an analogy at all! 

The big difference is there is a legal declaration to HMRC.

Not sure I've had to sign anything when I've bought milk from a supermarket!!!

On 25/08/2024 at 16:36, MtB said:

 

What a charmer you must be in real life! 

 

Strange how triggered some folk get about trivia. 

 

 

🤣🤣🤣

You have a diesel stove with a separate tank from your engine tank.

How does that work with a retailer insisting on a 60/40 split when it's your legal obligation to declare honestly?

[ditchcrawler]

14 minutes ago, StevieN said:

 

You have a diesel stove with a separate tank from your engine tank.

How does that work with a retailer insisting on a 60/40 split when it's your legal obligation to declare honestly?

You don't buy from them the same as I dont.

[Alway Swilby]

4 hours ago, StevieN said:

Not an analogy at all! 

The big difference is there is a legal declaration to HMRC.

Not sure I've had to sign anything when I've bought milk from a supermarket!!!

🤣🤣🤣

You have a diesel stove with a separate tank from your engine tank.

How does that work with a retailer insisting on a 60/40 split when it's your legal obligation to declare honestly?

You buy it from a different retailer.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 hours ago, StevieN said:

How does that work with a retailer insisting on a 60/40 split when it's your legal obligation to declare honestly?

 

As HMRC explained in the consultation, you should make whatever declaration you believe your FUTURE usage will be, you may be at any time be asked to justify your claimed 'split'-however, to make it easier for users and retailers HMRC (remember this is the HMRCE suggestion) will accept without question a declaration of  60/40 and you will not be required to justify it.

 

Go back to the HMRC website for the 15th June 2019 and you will find all of the consulation documents.

Then go to March 2021 where you will see the consultation documents, consclusions and decisions.

 

Make some effort and go and find the facts, at the moment you seemingly have no idea of either the history, the facts, or the conclusions.

Edited August 30, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[GUMPY]

5 hours ago, StevieN said:

You have a diesel stove with a separate tank from your engine tank.

How does that work with a retailer insisting on a 60/40 split when it's your legal obligation to declare honestly?

The one time this happened to me, as I was buying 800Litres, I just asked for a lower price as it was too expensive at 60/40.

He gave me a price lower than any other local Thames dealer quoted for 100% domestic. What was on the form I neither know nor care.

It's all about price 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, GUMPY said:

The one time this happened to me, as I was buying 800Litres, I just asked for a lower price as it was too expensive at 60/40.

He gave me a price lower than any other local Thames dealer quoted for 100% domestic. What was on the form I neither know nor care.

It's all about price 

I genuinely can claim full domestic, sobit annoys me when suppliers decide otherwise, I mostly use diesel for water heating and domestic electricity production, 5kw of solar and 46kwhs of batteries does that

[nb Innisfree]

FWIW when self declaration was introduced, to avoid any confusion we decided to be honest, so I installed an hour meter on Innisfree's gearbox, as full time ccers we used to average approx 20% propulsion, if any supplier refused our declaration we would cast off and p**s off, though that was rare some expressed doubts, it seemed to me they didn't understand HMRC's wording and were worried, I seem to recall that they might have thought they had a "duty of care" to ensure boaters didn't unintentionally declare the wrong split.

Confusing then as it is now. 

[David Mack]

13 hours ago, nb Innisfree said:

so I installed an hour meter on Innisfree's gearbox, as full time ccers we used to average approx 20% propulsion

So how do you install an hour meter on a gearbox? And how do you deduce from the readings what proportion of the fuel consumed has been used for propulsion?

Edited August 31, 2024 by David Mack

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, David Mack said:

So how do you install an hour meter on a gearbox? And how do you deduce from the readings what proportion of the fuel consumed has been used for propulsion?

 

Maybe it counted shaft rotations ?

[Mike Todd]

14 hours ago, peterboat said:

I genuinely can claim full domestic, sobit annoys me when suppliers decide otherwise, I mostly use diesel for water heating and domestic electricity production, 5kw of solar and 46kwhs of batteries does that

Why do you not buy from a supplier who meets your needs? Surely there must be one ouf there who does.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Why do you not buy from a supplier who meets your needs? Surely there must be one ouf there who does.

Goole does, you tell them what the split is andvthey apply it

[nb Innisfree]

7 hours ago, David Mack said:

So how do you install an hour meter on a gearbox? And how do you deduce from the readings what proportion of the fuel consumed has been used for propulsion?

Clue: when g'box is turning boat is cruising.

 

Work out ratio of g'box/engine running hours and apply to amount of diesel purchased, ie 20 hrs g'box ÷ 100 hrs engine = 0.2 = 20% = 20/100 split (20% cruising) Simple. 

 

To be honest I can't remember how I installed it, long time ago though it was quite straightforward. 

[Tony Brooks]

12 hours ago, nb Innisfree said:

Clue: when g'box is turning boat is cruising.

 

Work out ratio of g'box/engine running hours and apply to amount of diesel purchased, ie 20 hrs g'box ÷ 100 hrs engine = 0.2 = 20% = 20/100 split (20% cruising) Simple. 

 

To be honest I can't remember how I installed it, long time ago though it was quite straightforward. 

 

But that does not measure fuel used, only the time run percentages. Running in neutral will use less fuel per hour than running in gear, and this is without the different fuel consumption depending upon load. A diesel will alter the fuel delivered to maintain any set speed, so if the load at that speed goes up, so will the fuel consumption.

[David Mack]

And when the engine is propelling the boat some of the energy used goes to turning the propeller (propulsion use) and some of it goes to charging the batteries (domestic use), and if a calorifier is fitted, water heating (domestic use). My understanding is that the HMRC-suggested 69/40 split is specifically intended to reflect that split of uses when an engine is used mostly for propelling the boat rather than extended periods of stationary battery charging.

12 hours ago, nb Innisfree said:

Clue: when g'box is turning boat is cruising.

But how does the hour meter 'know' that the gearbox output shaft is turning?

[nb Innisfree]

It is an approximation, as accurate as can reasonably be achieved. 

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 My understanding is that the HMRC-suggested 69/40 split is specifically intended to reflect that split of uses when an engine is used mostly for propelling the boat rather than extended periods of stationary battery charging.

When we did a long run (Skipton to 

Devizes in 3/4 days) we used 60/40

17 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

But how does the hour meter 'know' that the gearbox output shaft is turning?

It doesn't 'know' anything, it just runs when g'box is engaged, I remember now, I fitted it to the Morse lever.