Diesel propulsion splits - new advice from HMRC?

[Tonka]

Just now, peterboat said:

My electric motor is for propulsion, I have a substantial battery bank so the rules say 100% domestic. 

No wonder the government are cutting the CRT rebate when people are clearly avoiding tax. Not even @IanDdoes that and he has an electric boat

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Which bit aren't you sure about?

The Split part, the rules set by HMRC are fairly clear for electric boats

1 minute ago, Tonka said:

No wonder the government are cutting the CRT rebate when people are clearly avoiding tax. Not even @IanDdoes that and he has an electric boat

HMRC makes the rules I am just obeying them. My heating is part diesel powered as well, the generator makes electric for domestic use, hot water and runs the central heating if left running long enough. 

[Tonka]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The Split part, the rules set by HMRC are fairly clear for electric boats

HMRC makes the rules I am just obeying them. My heating is part diesel powered as well, the generator makes electric for domestic use, hot water and runs the central heating if left running long enough. 

Well I hope the bit about diesel only being sold in a 60/40 split comes true so everyone pays their fair way

[ditchcrawler]

17 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Well I hope the bit about diesel only being sold in a 60/40 split comes true so everyone pays their fair way

Or maybe before the Dutch spat the dummy out go back to 100% rebated in boats 

[Quattrodave]

59 minutes ago, peterboat said:

He can't sell it to you, if caught he will possibly loose the right to buy it

 

Why's that then?

[Paul C]

29 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The Split part, the rules set by HMRC are fairly clear for electric boats

 

 

Its not that they can say "no, we think you should be paying xx% split", its that a boat yard - indeed ANY retailer - is not obligated to sell anything, to anyone. Its not a public service they have to offer. So long as they're not discriminating against protected characteristics (eg they are refusing to sell to disabled people) they can choose not to sell to a boater who wants 100% domestic. They could choose to only sell at 60/40.

[Quattrodave]

3 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Its not that they can say "no, we think you should be paying xx% split", its that a boat yard - indeed ANY retailer - is not obligated to sell anything, to anyone. Its not a public service they have to offer. So long as they're not discriminating against protected characteristics (eg they are refusing to sell to disabled people) they can choose not to sell to a boater who wants 100% domestic. They could choose to only sell at 60/40.

 

Indeed, the onus is on you as the purchaser not to make a false declaration.  Just like at a petrol station that sells red diesel and they hand you the book to fill in, its up to you to tell the truth or not.....

[Alan de Enfield]

43 minutes ago, Quattrodave said:

 

Why's that then?

 

Because thats the law - A Farmer is not a registered seller - he is a user.

He will not have signed the RCDO (Registered Dealer in Controlled OIls) and has registered with the HMRC

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Because thats the law - A Farmer is not a registered seller - he is a user.

He will not have signed the RCDO (Registered Dealer in Controlled OIls) and has registered with the HMRC

 

So does that remove his right to buy fuel? 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

 

Following various posts about Red Diesel being allowd to be used by Churchill following the 'little ships part the Dunquerqe recovery I been having a look to see what I can find.

 

I can find no specific reference to where boats are mentioned, but 'off-road' vehicles were allowed to use 'reduced duty fuel' in 1934.

It was not until 1961 that a red dye was added that we had "Red Diesel"

 

A brief summary :

 

History of Red Diesel

• 1921 – Customs Duty was charged on imported motor spirits till 1921, which was then abolished and replaced by vehicle license & excise duty. Fire engines, road rollers, and ambulances were exempt.
• 1934 – Exemptions were given to cleaning vehicles ( road & gully), and off-road vehicles duty was reduced.
• 1935 –Road vehicles were barred from using rebated fuels.
• Rail transport and off-road vehicle usage were promoted by offering subsidised rates.
• Categories introduced for legal use.
• 1947 – Industrial vehicles, such as tractors, cranes, etc., were given a reduction in excise duties.
• 1950 – The eligibility was extended to off-road vehicles operating near farms or in woodlands.
• 1952 – clear legislation was introduced to make sure that no off-road vehicles except those already stated in policy were to be allowed rebates.
• 1959 – Further extension in the list of eligible vehicles. The marking of fuel was started to be identified as rebated fuel.
• 1961 – Red dye and other chemical markers were introduced and were made a requirement for identifying rebated fuel. This was followed by an expansion in the vehicle exemption list.

 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I can find no specific reference to where boats are mentioned, but 'off-road' vehicles were allowed to use 'reduced duty fuel' in 1934.

It was not until 1961 that a red dye was added that we had "Red Diesel"

 

 

So the Dunkirk thing is not backed up and just an urban myth it appears, given the dunkirk rescue happened in 1940. 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

 

Its not that they can say "no, we think you should be paying xx% split", its that a boat yard - indeed ANY retailer - is not obligated to sell anything, to anyone. Its not a public service they have to offer. So long as they're not discriminating against protected characteristics (eg they are refusing to sell to disabled people) they can choose not to sell to a boater who wants 100% domestic. They could choose to only sell at 60/40.

HMRC says different, if I didn't have the generator just the bubble stove why would I pay the propulsion tax? Answer you don't, well in my case the generator doesn't count so I don't pay the propulsion tax

Edited August 23, 2024 by peterboat

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

So the Dunkirk thing is not backed up and just an urban myth it appears, given the dunkirk rescue happened in 1940. 

 

 

 

That was my thought, hence the searching for info.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That was my thought, hence the searching for info.

 

Its a very nice myth which I think ought to be made into a fact....

 

 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Tonka said:

No wonder the government are cutting the CRT rebate when people are clearly avoiding tax. Not even @IanDdoes that and he has an electric boat

My last purchase I declared the standard 60:40, because I know how much fuel I used for the generator and heating and how much of the power was used for propulsion.

 

I could have declared 100% domestic use to reduce the cost -- in fact I was asked if I wanted to do this since the boat is a series hybrid -- but that would have not been honest... 😉

[LadyG]

I tend to pay based on the previous usage, occasionally influenced by the cost of the stuff! I am generally buying 100l, sometimes  a discount kicks in at that level. Most often its 20%, but 50/50 in summer.

[StevieN]

On 20/08/2024 at 17:45, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But - the operator can apply conditions to their sale, including, credit card only, cash only, 100 litres minimum or even 60/40 only.

 

If you don't like their conditions of sale you can go elsewhere.  It is not a legal requirement for them to offer every permutation of  % they may be asked for.

Conditions of sale cannot contradict legislation which clearly states that it is THE PURCHASERS RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE THE DECLARATION.

I fail to see how anyone can misinterpret that. It's not open for negotiation and marina's or boatyard who insist on a particular split are working outside of HMRC/Tax Regs and can and should be reported and boycotted.

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, StevieN said:

It's not open for negotiation and marina's or boatyard who insist on a particular split are working outside of HMRC/Tax Regs and can and should be reported and boycotted.

 

What utter rubbish - the boat yard does not have to sell at any 'split', or even sell fuel at all.

 

If I want to sell beer in half-pints only that is entirely my perogative, if you want a pint glass then go elsewhere.

 

I'm selling red diesel at 60/40 only, so only those who intend to make that declaration can buy from me . if you want to make a 70/30 declaration find a suppler who will accept that.

 

I am only selling Fosters lager - if you want 4X, then find someone who sells 4X.

Edited August 25, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[Alway Swilby]

9 minutes ago, StevieN said:

Conditions of sale cannot contradict legislation which clearly states that it is THE PURCHASERS RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE THE DECLARATION.

I fail to see how anyone can misinterpret that. It's not open for negotiation and marina's or boatyard who insist on a particular split are working outside of HMRC/Tax Regs and can and should be reported and boycotted.

They are certainly already boycotted by many, including me. But reported? They aren't doing anything illegal. A retailer can chose to sell to whom they like. "We only sell diesel if you declare a 60/40 split" If you chose to declare a 20/80 split they can rightly refuse to sell you the stuff, as long as they tell you beforehand. A sign on the pump will suffice.

[StevieN]

59 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What utter rubbish - the boat yard does not have to sell at any 'split', or even sell fuel at all.

 

If I want to sell beer in half-pints only that is entirely my perogative, if you want a pint glass then go elsewhere.

 

I'm selling red diesel at 60/40 only, so only those who intend to make that declaration can buy from me . if you want to make a 70/30 declaration find a suppler who will accept that.

 

I am only selling Fosters lager - if you want 4X, then find someone who sells 4X.

If only any if that reply made sense!

"A boat yard doesn't have to sell diesel at all"

Then, obviously no ones buying diesel from them are they! 

 

And BTW alcohol HAS to be sold in legal measures. 

Maybe you've had too many already 🤔

 

Once again for the hard of understanding, it is not up to the marina to dictate how much you declare. The purchaser signs the official declaration not the retailer.

1 hour ago, Alway Swilby said:

They are certainly already boycotted by many, including me. But reported? They aren't doing anything illegal. A retailer can chose to sell to whom they like. "We only sell diesel if you declare a 60/40 split" If you chose to declare a 20/80 split they can rightly refuse to sell you the stuff, as long as they tell you beforehand. A sign on the pump will suffice.

So why only sell at one rate?

That surely limits your available market?

The whole idea of providing a service is giving the customers what they want.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What utter rubbish - the boat yard does not have to sell at any 'split', or even sell fuel at all.

 

If I want to sell beer in half-pints only that is entirely my perogative, if you want a pint glass then go elsewhere.

 

I'm selling red diesel at 60/40 only, so only those who intend to make that declaration can buy from me . if you want to make a 70/30 declaration find a suppler who will accept that.

 

I am only selling Fosters lager - if you want 4X, then find someone who sells 4X.

HMRC even put a notice out to that effect when it all kicked off

[adam1uk]

23 minutes ago, StevieN said:

If only any if that reply made sense!

"A boat yard doesn't have to sell diesel at all"

Then, obviously no ones buying diesel from them are they! 

 

And BTW alcohol HAS to be sold in legal measures. 

Maybe you've had too many already 🤔

 

Once again for the hard of understanding, it is not up to the marina to dictate how much you declare. The purchaser signs the official declaration not the retailer.

So why only sell at one rate?

That surely limits your available market?

The whole idea of providing a service is giving the customers what they want.

 

This has been gone over time and time again since the whole system came in.

 

Yes it's up to the buyer to make the declaration, but it's also the right of the marina to sell only at one split if they want to.  This was confirmed by HMRC years ago.  If you want to make a different split, you need to go to to different retailer -- just as you might go to a different supermarket if one has chicken cheaper than a competitor.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

HMRC even put a notice out to that effect when it all kicked off

 

There seems to be only one poster who is very 'hard of understanding' and think the 'rules' are what they want them to be.

Everyone else seems to know what the true situation is,.

[Momac]

47 minutes ago, StevieN said:

 

The whole idea of providing a service is giving the customers what they want.

You must be new to boating.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Momac said:

You must be new to boating.