Diesel propulsion splits - new advice from HMRC?

[Lily Rose]

 

Has anyone heard anything about this?

 

This is an extract of an email sent out to all moorers at our marina a few days ago. It's not something I've heard anything about from anyone/anywhere else. Also, I haven't bought any diesel for a while so I don't know if the prices quoted are a bit high. A fellow moorer told me they are.

 

Extract begins...

 

As of today 13/08/24 the payment process for diesel has been refined...

 

This does mean there is a change in the splits as we have asked advice from the British marine and HMRC themselves, these are now fixed propulsion rates of

 

0% propulsion  (£1.17 GROSS per litre)

60% propulsion  (£1.41 GROSS per litre)

100% propulsion (£1.58 GROSS per litre)  

 

as mentioned this is as a result of:

HMRC guidance – if we don’t follow this we are exposed
Backed up by British Marine and TYHA
We are not doing it for “process reasons” or to remove consumer choice but for good old fashioned tax compliance.

 

Extract ends

 

 

[Ray T]

Haven't had this at Kings Bromley.......yet!
KB also being part of the Aquavista empire.

 

The 60% figure is not too dissimilar to what we pay for our diesel road car.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2024 by Ray T

[Lily Rose]

 

Perhaps our manager has jumped the gun Ray!

[LadyG]

Looks a bit of a home made plan, why would they ask anyone, what is it to do with BMF, if that is what they mean, and as far as we are aware HMRC have always wanted 60 40 split, no  change, is there?

I reckon to pay about £1.25 for a 20 80 domestic/propulsion split. When prices were lower I might have changed  the ratio, but I never got to 40 60

Edited August 19, 2024 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, LadyG said:

Looks a bit of a home made plan, why would they ask anyone, what is it to do with BMF, if that is what they mean, and as far as we are aware HMRC have always wanted 60 40 split, no  change, is there?

 

I am not sure "wanted" is the correct term, I think that they said that they accept 60-40 was considered by the as acceptable.

[LadyG]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am not sure "wanted" is the correct term, I think that they said that they accept 60-40 was considered by the as acceptable.

Yep, acceptable to them is not acceptable to everyone of course.

[Machpoint005]

Is the suggestion to the effect that the declaration is no longer the responsibility of the buyer? The retailer can't be "done" for a false statement made by a customer, Shirley? 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

Has anyone heard anything about this?

 

I think you are reading too much into this - if this was the HMRCE instruction then the price system wide would be exactly the same - and I bet it isn't !

 

I think this is just your marinas new price list, dressed up in waffle to make it look like something they are being forced to do.

 

Thet are simply saying there are three declarations you can make :

 

100% Domestic

100% Propulsion

60/40

 

and these are the gross prices per litre for each split.

 

I don't see that they are doing anything different to the hundreds of other fuel suppliers.

[Midnight]

Only about half of the vendors I've used in the last two years mentioned splits or asked me to sign any declaration.

[ditchcrawler]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think you are reading too much into this - if this was the HMRCE instruction then the price system wide would be exactly the same - and I bet it isn't !

 

I think this is just your marinas new price list, dressed up in waffle to make it look like something they are being forced to do.

 

Thet are simply saying there are three declarations you can make :

 

100% Domestic

100% Propulsion

60/40

 

and these are the gross prices per litre for each split.

 

I don't see that they are doing anything different to the hundreds of other fuel suppliers.

Unless they are only offering 3 splits 

[Lily Rose]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think you are reading too much into this - if this was the HMRCE instruction then the price system wide would be exactly the same - and I bet it isn't !

 

I think this is just your marinas new price list, dressed up in waffle to make it look like something they are being forced to do.

 

Thet are simply saying there are three declarations you can make :

 

100% Domestic

100% Propulsion

60/40

 

and these are the gross prices per litre for each split.

 

I don't see that they are doing anything different to the hundreds of other fuel suppliers.

 

I don't think I'm reading too much into this. I'm suspicious hence my asking if anyone else has heard anything along these lines and anticipating the answer might well be no. 

[Quattrodave]

We reciently found a local farmer that will sell red diesel at 92p per litre, god knows what he's buying it for....!!

[Alan de Enfield]

37 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Unless they are only offering 3 splits 

 

Which, in my experince, has been the norm since the system ws introduced.

 

You could only have 100% domestic if you had a permanent residential mooring.

You claimed 60/40 if you were a ccer or leisure boater.

No one claimed 100% propulsion as some always went to heating water or charging batteries.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

don't think I'm reading too much into this.

 

Do you think that HMRC has specified those prices and that they will be implemented by every seller on the cut ?

It seems to be what you (you think your marina) are saying.

Edited August 19, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[Paul C]

55 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Only about half of the vendors I've used in the last two years mentioned splits or asked me to sign any declaration.

 

This. If there's been any recent change, its that the retailers have stopped even asking what split the boater wanted to declare, instead simply selling it at 100% domestic rate and "assuming" that the lowest price would be what the boater was going to declare anyway.

 

More generally, a boatyard is under no obligation to offer to sell at the split the boater wants, they can set the split(s) and the boater pay at this rate or choose to not buy diesel there. But most boatyards offered it in 10% increments and had tables drawn up of the net price per litre.

[Lily Rose]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Which, in my experince, has been the norm since the system ws introduced.

 

You could only have 100% domestic if you had a permanent residential mooring.

You claimed 60/40 if you were a ccer or leisure boater.

No one claimed 100% propulsion as some always went to heating water or charging batteries.

 

Do you think that HMRC has specified those prices and that they will be implemented by every seller on the cut ?

It seems to be what you (you think your marina) are saying.

 

I'm not saying it!

 

I'm just quoting what the marina have said.  The implication seems to be that this way of doing the split (not the prices!) is what HMRC will be requiring from everyone in the future rather than declaring whatever split the boater chooses to declare i.e. not just 100% / 60% / 0%

 

I'm sceptical which is why I'm asking if anyone else has heard of this.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

 

I'm not saying it!

 

I'm just quoting what the marina have said.  The implication seems to be that this way of doing the split (not the prices!) is what HMRC will be requiring from everyone in the future rather than declaring whatever split the boater chooses to declare i.e. not just 100% / 60% / 0%

 

I'm sceptical which is why I'm asking if anyone else has heard of this.

 

But, the sellers have always been able to say they will acceot only a 60/40 split (and many have done so).

I cannot see anything in the message that is new, or changed from previous.

 

Did yor marina previously allow any combination of 'split' ?

If so, it's maybe just the way the marina will operate in future.

[ditchcrawler]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Which, in my experince, has been the norm since the system ws introduced.

 

You could only have 100% domestic if you had a permanent residential mooring.

You claimed 60/40 if you were a ccer or leisure boater.

No one claimed 100% propulsion as some always went to heating water or charging batteries.

 

 

I have never found that, some who only sell at 60/40 (Braunston Marina) but never one who offers such limited choices 

[Lady M]

HMRC guidance does not appear to have changed.

[Lily Rose]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Did yor marina previously allow any combination of 'split' ?

Yes

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

Yes

 

 

 

 

Then I'd suggest that they are just making life simpler for themselves by having limited splits which (in my experience) is exactly what most suppliers ahave been offering.

 

I can find no evidence of 'new rules' from HMRC

 

[stagedamager]

as a dealer in controlled oils..... we haven't been sent updated guidance and still operate under the previous rules of the purchaser dictates the split. however they deem appropriate.

[Lily Rose]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Then I'd suggest that they are just making life simpler for themselves by having limited splits which (in my experience) is exactly what most suppliers ahave been offering.

 

I can find no evidence of 'new rules' from HMRC

 

 

This is what I suspect they are doing despite their denial of this.

 

I have no idea what most suppliers have been offering, all I know is that whenever I've bought from our marina or from other suppliers, including fuel boats, I have always been able to declare whatever split I wanted to. Irrespective of any of this I will still be buying from Ryan on Southern Cross whenever I can.

[Momac]

58 minutes ago, Quattrodave said:

We reciently found a local farmer that will sell red diesel at 92p per litre, god knows what he's buying it for....!!

Its not difficult to find out what farmers pay 

 

[ditchcrawler]

23 minutes ago, Momac said:

Its not difficult to find out what farmers pay 

 

Plus he will claim it as an expense on his annual tax return

[MtB]

45 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Plus he will claim it as an expense on his annual tax return

 

And if he is honest, he will also put the sale on his annual tax return.

 

 

Who here begrudges this farmer making a small profit on a fuel sale?