24m Dutch barge transport NL to Uk advice needed

[MIss VIcky]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Great so that seems to solve the VAT question.

 

The elephant in the room (seemingly contentious) is the question of the RCR - have you spoken with the BMF ?

 

 

 

No not yet but I will, thanks for the reminder 

[blackrose]

https://bargemovers.com/

 

He's actually a broker, you just chat to him on the phone and he arranges the relevant cranes and flatbed lorries. Get some quotes from different companies but in my experience he's likely to be your cheapest option. 

[MIss VIcky]

On 18/08/2024 at 13:55, blackrose said:

https://bargemovers.com/

 

He's actually a broker, you just chat to him on the phone and he arranges the relevant cranes and flatbed lorries. Get some quotes from different companies but in my experience he's likely to be your cheapest option. 

Thanks I had the quote revised by the original guy but it came out too much, I will get in touch 

[agg221]

Did you manage to resolve things with PLA?

 

It does occur to me that one option would be to have it craned aboard a ship, then craned off in the UK and towed to its mooring. That could overcome some of the road transport issues.

 

In my (very limited) experience, so long as the boat is already no longer commercial at the point when you bring it in, you don't have too many problems with RCR/RCD, and since they are accepting it as residential that would appear to tick that one off.

 

Alec

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, agg221 said:

In my (very limited) experience, so long as the boat is already no longer commercial at the point when you bring it in, you don't have too many problems with RCR/RCD, and since they are accepting it as residential that would appear to tick that one off.

 

The problem is that THEY are HMRC and HMRC have no say in the RCR.

 

The RCR authoriyties say that any ex commercial vessel converted to a 'recreational vessel' (which includes liveaboards) is subject to the RCR,

 

The get out clause could be if the boat is mis-measured and comes out at 24.01 metres then the RCR does not apply - if it is 24mts LOA (or less) then it does apply

[agg221]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The RCR authoriyties say that any ex commercial vessel converted to a 'recreational vessel' (which includes liveaboards) is subject to the RCR,

 

It depends when the conversion was done. Oates was commercial, but ceased to be in 1974. RCR therefore does not apply. My Dutch boat became a pleasure craft around 1980 so the same applies. If this Dutch barge was converted to residential use prior to the invention of the RCD/RCR the same applies.

 

Alec

Edited August 21, 2024 by agg221

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, agg221 said:

It depends when the conversion was done. Oates was commercial, but ceased to be in 1974. RCR therefore does not apply. My Dutch boat became a pleasure craft around 1980 so the same applies. If this Dutch barge was converted to residential use prior to the invention of the RCD/RCR the same applies.

 

Alec

 

And again, the RCR powers that be say that any boat coming into the UK, which was in the EU at 11pm, 30th Dec 2021 Will be required to have a PCA to ensure compliance with the RCR.

 

I have posted the full details recently but keep getting complaints about cut & paste, but you can easily find them online.

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have posted the full details recently but keep getting complaints about cut & paste, but you can easily find them online.

 

Just to explain, people are not moaning about you cutting and pasting per se, they are moaning that you post pages and pages of documentation out of which only a sentence of a few sentences or paragraphs tend to be relevant. The complaints would be easily defeated by posting only the relevant parts of what are often massive documents (along with a link to the whole thing). 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Just to explain, people are not moaning about you cutting and pasting per se, they are moaning that you post pages and pages of documentation out of which only a sentence of a few sentences or paragraphs tend to be relevant. The complaints would be easily defeated by posting only the relevant parts of what are often massive documents (along with a link to the whole thing). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Extract from Governments notice "Recreational Craft Directive issues arising from Brexit" 

 

".................This means that from 1 January 2022 a used vessel being imported from the EU to be placed on the UK market will be required to obtain a UK Conformity Assessed (UKCA) mark in line with the requirements of the RCR"

 

 

Extract from another Government department document :

 

Obligations of private importers

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.
The obligations of private importers include:
•
If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.
•
The private importer must ensure before putting recreational craft into service that it has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements.

 

The private importer must ensure that the obligations for manufacturer covering technical documentation; declaration of conformity; relevant marking; instructions and safety information; provision of information and cooperation have been met or carried out.
•
Where technical documentation is not available from the manufacturer, the private importer must have this drawn up using the appropriate expertise.
•
The private importer must ensure that the name and postal address of the approved body that carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure in relation to the product is marked on the craft.

 

Edited August 21, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Extract from Governments notice "Recreational Craft Directive issues arising from Brexit" 

 

".................This means that from 1 January 2022 a used vessel being imported from the EU to be placed on the UK market will be required to obtain a UK Conformity Assessed (UKCA) mark in line with the requirements of the RCR"

 

 

Extract from another Government department document :

 

Obligations of private importers

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.
The obligations of private importers include:
•
If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.
•
The private importer must ensure before putting recreational craft into service that it has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements.

 

 

Brilliant. Thank you!! 

 

 

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, agg221 said:

It depends when the conversion was done. Oates was commercial, but ceased to be in 1974. RCR therefore does not apply. My Dutch boat became a pleasure craft around 1980 so the same applies. If this Dutch barge was converted to residential use prior to the invention of the RCD/RCR the same applies.

 

Alec

My reading of the rules is that such craft already in the UK would fall outside the scope of RCR, but any boat brought in from abroad (for the first time), whatever its age and history, is treated the same as a brand new imported boat. So the current RCR requirements would apply.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

My reading of the rules is that such craft already in the UK would fall outside the scope of RCR, but any boat brought in from abroad (for the first time), whatever its age and history, is treated the same as a brand new imported boat. So the current RCR requirements would apply.

 

For now, but Alan's recent post suggests that will be changing at the end of this year!

 

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/122372-2024-proposed-changes-to-the-rcr-recreational-craft-regulations/

 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

For now, but Alan's recent post suggests that will be changing at the end of this year!

 

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/122372-2024-proposed-changes-to-the-rcr-recreational-craft-regulations/

 

 

But only if it already has an RCD.

 

If it is 'just' an old converted (or unconverted) barge, without an RCD, when it is placed on the UK market for the 1st time it will require to be compliant and have a PCA.

The big (expensive) problem is likely to be that it was never built with RCD / RCR compliance in mind so even its basic structure may be a failure and need to be bought into like with requirements.

 

If it is measured at just over 24mts (the OP says it is a 24mt barge) then all of the RCD/ RCR questions go away.

There is an ISO standard listed in the RCD / RCR that explains how to measure LOA -  I'm sure that it could include a bow fender if needed.

 

Maybe if @MIss VIcky measured her boat in accordance with the requirements she may find that it is actually RCR exempt (Just trying to help)

 

I think it would be the Hull Length (LH) that would be the one to meaasure.

 

The relevant harmonised standard for measuring the craft’s hull length is the current version of EN ISO 8666 Small craft – Principal data.

 

5.2 Longitudinal

The lengths of a craft shall be measured parallel to the reference waterline and craft centreline as the distance between two vertical planes, perpendicular to the centreplane of the craft.

 

5.2.1 Maximum length, Lmax The maximum length, Lmax, shall be measured in accordance with 5.2, one plane passing through the foremost part and the other through the aftermost part of the craft. This length includes all structural and integral parts of the craft, such as wooden, plastic or metal stems or sterns, bulwarks and hull/deck joints. This length includes parts which are normally fixed, such as fixed spars, bowsprits, pulpits at either end of the craft, stemhead fittings, rudders, outboard motor brackets, outdrives, waterjets and any propulsion units extending beyond the transom, diving and boarding platforms, rubbing strakes and permanent fenders. Outdrives, waterjets, other propulsion units and all movable parts shall be measured in their normal operating condition to their maximum lengthwise extension when the craft is underway. This length excludes:  outboard motors;  any other type of equipment that can be detached without the use of tools.

See Figure 1 for monohull measurements and Figure 2 for multihull measurements.

 

5.2.2 Length of the hull, LH The length of the hull, LH, shall be measured in accordance with 5.2, one plane passing through the foremost part of the craft and the other through the aftermost part of the craft. This length includes all structural and integral parts of the craft, such as wooden, plastic or metal stems or sterns, bulwarks and hull/deck joints. This length excludes removable parts that can be detached in a non-destructive manner and without affecting the structural integrity of the craft, e.g. spars, bowsprits, pulpits at either end of the craft, stemhead fittings, rudders, outdrives, outboard motors and their mounting brackets and plates, diving platforms, boarding platforms, rubbing strakes and fenders. This length does not exclude detachable parts of the hull, which act as hydrostatic or dynamic support when the craft is at rest or underway.

 

Edited August 21, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[MIss VIcky]

16 hours ago, agg221 said:

Did you manage to resolve things with PLA?

 

It does occur to me that one option would be to have it craned aboard a ship, then craned off in the UK and towed to its mooring. That could overcome some of the road transport issues.

 

In my (very limited) experience, so long as the boat is already no longer commercial at the point when you bring it in, you don't have too many problems with RCR/RCD, and since they are accepting it as residential that would appear to tick that one off.

 

Alec

Not got that far yet