24m Dutch barge transport NL to Uk advice needed

[MIss VIcky]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

WELL - if you have had a quote then I'd suggest the freight company know the rules over weights, length and widths, so that should be OK. 

 

You have no problem with the Recreational Craft Regulations for a 1920 built boat - as it stands, but if you are going to do major work on it and it becomes your home you may find that you need a PCA (Post Construction Assessment) to make sure it is safe and built to the correct standards. This assessement is likely to cost in excess of £6000 + any corrective work needed. This is in some doubt but looks to be the way the UK is now applying the law.

 

I suggest you speak to :

 

1) The VAT office and clarify the situation

2) The BMF who are responsible for administering the Recretional Craft Regulations in the UK

 

It really is no longer viable to bring a boat into the UK from anywhere, unless it is "something special".

Thanks I will contact these last suggestions tomorrow 

Just now, MIss VIcky said:

Thanks I will contact these last suggestions tomorrow 

It’s not major work it’s just interior fit out, the main CVO was done in NL

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Declaring a pleasure craft that you’re importing

Taxes and duties you may need to pay to import a vessel into the UK

Owners of vessels less than 12 metres long may have to pay Customs Duty when imported from outside the UK. Check what duties you have to pay.

Owners of vessels designed or adapted for recreation or pleasure use may have to pay VAT by completing form C384 (Vessels) and sending the form by email to the Pleasure Craft Unit of Expertise :

Pleasure Craft Unit of Expertise
Email: [email protected]

Telephone:
03000 516 864

Edited just now by Alan de Enfield

Yes I literally just emailed them tonight, thanks 

[Bargebuilder]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I take it you have never brought a boat int a UK port/harbour from abroad.

 

You are right about that, but there are hundreds of tatty old Dutch barges up and down the East coast and lots of little yards I can think of that wouldn't ask where a new arrival had sailed from. It's certainly not something I'd condone doing, but I'll bet it's been done.

[ditchcrawler]

35 minutes ago, MIss VIcky said:

Thanks for sharing that info. I had a quote for around 6000 from NL to UK. Mine in 42 tones but empty as it got stripped down . So that is the weight . So maybe ok I don’t know . That quote is with 2 escorts 

If its stripped down is it really that heavy or was that the displacement when afloat and fitted?

[MIss VIcky]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

If its stripped down is it really that heavy or was that the displacement when afloat and fitted?

That was as it is now pretty much , maybe a few small thing taken off but not much difference . The water is out of the heating and tank etc, the flooring is up . That’s it 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

You are right about that, but there are hundreds of tatty old Dutch barges up and down the East coast and lots of little yards I can think of that wouldn't ask where a new arrival had sailed from. It's certainly not something I'd condone doing, but I'll bet it's been done.

 

Going into central London under tow may be a slightly different proposition, and fairly obvious to the River Police.

[MIss VIcky]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Going into central London under tow may be a slightly different proposition, and fairly obvious to the River Police.

Agreed. I contacted the port of London authority today, waiting for a call back to see what the procedures are 

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, MIss VIcky said:

It’s not major work it’s just interior fit out, the main CVO was done in NL

 

Is the engine problem a "repair" or "replacement"

Will you be installing or 'improving' a gas system ?

Will you be revising or installing new electrical systems ?

Will you be making any changes to the ballast ?

 

All of these are 'safety issues' and class as 'major work'.

[Bargebuilder]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Is the engine problem a "repair" or "replacement"

Will you be installing or 'improving' a gas system ?

Will you be revising or installing new electrical systems ?

Will you be making any changes to the ballast ?

 

All of these are 'safety issues' and class as 'major work'.

Do you think anyone will care?

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You have no problem with the Recreational Craft Regulations for a 1920 built boat - as it stands, but if you are going to do major work on it and it becomes your home you may find that you need a PCA (Post Construction Assessment) to make sure it is safe and built to the correct standards.

 

Tripe.  A 1920s boat is not in scope in any of the RCD/RCR regulations.  At all.

 

They have not and will not backdate any of the rules, although they have applied the new stricter rules to boats that were originally in scope on the previous versions.

 

Stop fearmonging please.  You are allowed and indeed encouraged to point out the rules to those looking at in scope vessels, but don't make stuff up if you want to be taken seriously by anyone ever again.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Do you think anyone will care?

 

 

I've gone beyond caring what you think.

Laws are laws - are you condoning (again) the breaking of the law ?

Deja Vu !

 

 

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Tripe.  A 1920s boat is not in scope in any of the RCD/RCR regulations.  At all.

 

They have not and will not backdate any of the rules, although they have applied the new stricter rules to boats that were originally in scope on the previous versions.

 

Stop fearmonging please.  You are allowed and indeed encouraged to point out the rules to those looking at in scope vessels, but don't make stuff up if you want to be taken seriously by anyone ever again.

 

PLEASE READ THE RCR.

 

Any commercial vessel of any age being converted to a recreational vessel (including as a non commercial liveaboard) is subject to the RCR.

 

This is FACT - not scaremongering and folks such as yourself who cannot be bothered to read the regulations are causing much of the problem of understanding the regulations.

 

PLEASE stop spreaading incorrect information.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

PLEASE READ THE RCR.

 

Any commercial vessel of any age being converted to a recreational vessel (including as a non commercial liveaboard) is subject to the RCR.

 

Certainly.  Can you please quote in detail Part 1, Section 4.1 (e)

 

Thanks for reading.

 

 

[Bargebuilder]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I've gone beyond caring what you think.

Laws are laws - are you condoning (again) the breaking of the law ?

Deja Vu !

I'm not condoning law breaking, simply pointing out the obvious, that almost every original Dutch barge has by now had new electrical systems and gas installations, even if not new engines. They are changing hands all the time without a PCA, Apollo Duck is full of them. I know of one that is currently on the market for over £200k that has been gutted and completely rebuilt and has changed hands to my knowledge 3 times in the last 10 years and that has no such documentation. My point is that many people will buy a boat they like anyway, however often you highlight the regulations.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Certainly.  Can you please quote in detail Part 1, Section 4.1 (e)

 

Thanks for reading.

 

 

 

And you realise that does not say 'commercial vessels'

 

Please show me where it says that commercial vessels up to and incuding 24mt loa converted to recreational vessels are exempt.

 

This is a conversion of something that was not a recreational vessel into a 'new' recreational vessel.

 

 

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 (SI 737) as Amended

The Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR) are UK law that applies to all craft in scope when first placed on the UK market or put into service on the UK market, this includes all new craft and second hand craft brought into the UK regardless of age. It can also apply to craft that may have been used as commercial craft before being put on the recreational market regardless of age, and craft having undergone Major Craft Conversion.

 In simple terms, under the Regulations, all boats when first used, sold or transferred in the UK, for recreational purposes, must meet the ERs and be UKCA marked – by law.

 

The ERs include those aspects involved with:

Vessel Structure Buoyancy & Flotation Handling Characteristics Hull, deck & superstructure openings Means of Escape Fuel System Gas System Fire-fighting Equipment Discharge Prevention Protection from falling overboard & means of re-boarding Stability & Freeboard

Anchoring, Mooring & Towing Steering System Visibility from main steering position Propulsion Engines & Motors Engine Installation Outboard engine Starting Electrical System Fire Prevention Navigation Lights Flooding Liferaft Stowage

Craft built for own use (no matter how old) has to go through Post Construction Assessment.

Buying an old barge, stripping it out and refitting it as a non-commercial (recreational) boat requires to be RCR complaint and/or have a PCA

Edited August 13, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And you realise that does not say 'commercial vessels'

 

Please show me where it says that commercial vessels up to and incuding 24mt loa converted to recreational vessels are exempt.

 

This is a conversion of something that was not a recreational vessel into a 'new' recreational vessel.

 

 

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 (SI 737) as Amended

The Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR) are UK law that applies to all craft in scope when first placed on the UK market or put into service on the UK market, this includes all new craft and second hand craft brought into the UK regardless of age. It can also apply to craft that may have been used as commercial craft before being put on the recreational market regardless of age, and craft having undergone Major Craft Conversion.

 In simple terms, under the Regulations, all boats when first used, sold or transferred in the UK, for recreational purposes, must meet the ERs and be UKCA marked – by law.

 

The ERs include those aspects involved with:

Vessel Structure Buoyancy & Flotation Handling Characteristics Hull, deck & superstructure openings Means of Escape Fuel System Gas System Fire-fighting Equipment Discharge Prevention Protection from falling overboard & means of re-boarding Stability & Freeboard

Anchoring, Mooring & Towing Steering System Visibility from main steering position Propulsion Engines & Motors Engine Installation Outboard engine Starting Electrical System Fire Prevention Navigation Lights Flooding Liferaft Stowage

Craft built for own use (no matter how old) has to go through Post Construction Assessment.

Buying an old barge, stripping it out and refitting it as a non-commercial (recreational) boat requires to be RCR complaint and/or have a PCA

 

You seem to have deliberately edited out the middle section:

 

However, it should be noted that the Regulations only relates to the first use, sale or transfer, with no requirement for compliance with the Regulations after that date, unless the craft goes through Major Craft Conversion. Furthermore, there is no requirement for a vessel UKCA marked when first used, sold or transferred to be maintained to the Regulations. Therefore, the UKCA marking of a second-hand craft for sale does not guarantee that it is fit for the purpose or has been maintained to any particular standard.

 

Assuming (always dangerous!) that you are quoting verbatim from

https://marinesurveys.co.uk/index.php?view=article&id=6&catid=11

 

Which is word for word the rest of your copy and paste.

 

 

[Ewan123]

Do you have a permanent mooring arranged? At 24m long it looks like it might not fit through the locks in most of London... you'll be limited to the Lee Navigation.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/go-boating/planning-your-boat-route/waterway-dimensions

 

 

 

Regent's:

 

 

Edited August 14, 2024 by Ewan123
I can't read

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

You seem to have deliberately edited out the middle section:

 

However, it should be noted that the Regulations only relates to the first use, sale or transfer, with no requirement for compliance with the Regulations after that date, unless the craft goes through Major Craft Conversion. Furthermore, there is no requirement for a vessel UKCA marked when first used, sold or transferred to be maintained to the Regulations. Therefore, the UKCA marking of a second-hand craft for sale does not guarantee that it is fit for the purpose or has been maintained to any particular standard.

 

Assuming (always dangerous!) that you are quoting verbatim from

https://marinesurveys.co.uk/index.php?view=article&id=6&catid=11

 

Which is word for word the rest of your copy and paste.

 

 

 

 

And, for some reason you seem to be deliberately ignoring the relevant section- maybe you cannot just accept that your knowledge was incomplete and you were not aware that commercial vessels bought into use / converted to recreational vessels, irrespective of age need to be compliant.

 

I will quote again :

 

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

...........this includes all new craft and second hand craft brought into the UK regardless of age. It can also apply to craft that may have been used as commercial craft before being put on the recreational market regardless of age, and craft having undergone Major Craft Conversion.

 

 

and, to answer your point about 'first use'.

This will be the 'first use', in the UK, of the OPs boat as a recreational vessel, so, it requires a PCA

 

 

[blackrose]

11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A quick googl says that the maximum TOTAL weight (Truck, Trailer and load) for UK roads is 44 tonnes.

I'd suggest that if your boat weight is correct then it will be considerably over 44 tonnes 'all up'

 

My boat is 3.65m beam x 17.5m length and weighs 29 tonnes. The OP's boat is the same beam and 6.5m longer. I'd estimate it probably weighs more like 40 tonnes.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

My boat is 3.65m beam x 17.5m length and weighs 29 tonnes. The OP's boat is the same beam and 6.5m longer. I'd estimate it probably weighs more like 40 tonnes.

 

Thankyou - so the IP is probably correct at ~42 tonnes.

 

[blackrose]

54 minutes ago, Ewan123 said:

Do you have a permanent mooring arranged? At 24m long it looks like it might not fit through the locks in most of London... you'll be limited to the Lee Navigation.

 

 

Did you read the original post?

Edited August 14, 2024 by blackrose

[Ewan123]

7 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Did you read the original post?

Apparently not 😐

[Alan de Enfield]

23 hours ago, MIss VIcky said:

Thanks I will contact these last suggestions tomorrow 

 

23 hours ago, MIss VIcky said:

Yes I literally just emailed them tonight, thanks 

 

 

Have you had any responses to your questions from the relevant authorities ( BMF, HMRC VAT, Port of London etc) ?

(rather than some random blokes on the internet arguing)

[Bargebuilder]

30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

Have you had any responses to your questions from the relevant authorities ( BMF, HMRC VAT, Port of London etc) ?

(rather than some random blokes on the internet arguing)

This was the OPs original question:

"any advice (or links)  is greatly appreciated as HMRC is not offering any, only helpline that don’t give any solid advice"

[MIss VIcky]

36 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

Have you had any responses to your questions from the relevant authorities ( BMF, HMRC VAT, Port of London etc) ?

(rather than some random blokes on the internet arguing)

Hi there, yes so I can bring it in and be exempt from tax apparently , as it’s a TR01 ( transfer of residence)  so that’s good news and I have it in writing . 
 

port of London didn’t get back yet still waiting 

 

the transport situation is still an issue so will keep you posted . Thanks again for all the suggestions 

 

 

13 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

My boat is 3.65m beam x 17.5m length and weighs 29 tonnes. The OP's boat is the same beam and 6.5m longer. I'd estimate it probably weighs more like 40 tonnes.

Correct I think I posted 24, I meant 42 tonnes 

[Slim]

On 13/08/2024 at 21:57, Alan de Enfield said:

Fly the yellow ‘Q’ flag when you enter UK waters

For journeys that you must report, you must fly the yellow ‘Q’ flag as soon as you enter UK waters (the 12-mile limit).

Make sure the flag can easily be seen and do not take it down until you’ve finished reporting to customs authorities.

If you do not comply you will be liable to a penalty.

 

And even if you are TOTALLY legal and FLYING the Q flag from the crosstrees if a local customs official doesn't agree your boat will be 'arrested' until you produce whatever documents requested.  Offering to produce them in another Customs office (Heathrow instead of Falmouth) would (may) not be acceptable. They're a law unto themselves.  

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, MIss VIcky said:

Hi there, yes so I can bring it in and be exempt from tax apparently , as it’s a TR01 ( transfer of residence)  so that’s good news and I have it in writing .

 

Great so that seems to solve the VAT question.

 

The elephant in the room (seemingly contentious) is the question of the RCR - have you spoken with the BMF ?

 

 

14 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

this includes all new craft and second hand craft brought into the UK regardless of age. It can also apply to craft that may have been used as commercial craft before being put on the recreational market regardless of age, and craft having undergone Major Craft Conversion.