RCD and RCA

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

ie pre 1998

Or if they're newer but home-built/fitted-out (maybe), or any other exceptions which apply.  And there's the rub... 😉 

 

My point is that a website which says what the quoted one does doesn't mean that all boats have to meet the rules, because the rules include exceptions. The clue is in the phrase "relevant legislation"...

Edited July 16 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

because the rules include exceptions.

 

And the exceptions are quoted .....................

Canoes

Jetskis

'Copies' of 'old boats'

Hovercraft

etc etc

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And the exceptions are quoted .....................

Canoes

Jetskis

'Copies' of 'old boats'

Hovercraft

etc etc

And self-built/self-fitted-out boats? Of what age?

 

Self-contradiction in action... 😉 

 

https://www.abnb.co.uk/useful-information/faq-rcd

 

The exception to the above, is for a vessel that has been self-built in its entirety (including the shell) by a DIY boatbuilder for their own personal use. However, if the vessel is placed on the market within 5 years, it must be CE marked to satisfy the requirements of the RCR (RCD). The vessel does not have to be complete for the 5 year period to start, but does have to have been used as a boat (e.g. cruised on a waterway).

The '5-year rule' does not apply to a private boatbuilder who is building a boat for their own use from a shell or sailaway that has been purchased from a professional builder. These vessels have to be assessed under Post Construction Assessment by an Approved Body when put into service.

In the Inland Waterways, the industry as a whole believed that a self-fitted out boat fell under the 5-year rule, ie. as long as the boat owner kept the boat for 5 years, it did not need to comply with the RCD and could be sold legally. However, a recent Independent legal review and clarification from Trading Standards in early 2024 has highlighted that this is not the case.

Can I buy a craft that does not appear to meet the RCR?

If brand new, then No. When brand new, the craft should include: a Declaration of Conformity; Owner’s Manual; Builder’s Plate (including a CE mark); and a Watercraft Identification Number (WIN). The WIN has to be permanently marked to the craft in certain laid out locations. Make sure that you see these before buying the boat.

If not brand new, then, unless built before June 1998, you may question why there are no obvious signs of original compliance with the RCR (or RCD), however, it is important to note that it is NOT against the law to sell a second hand vessel without RCR (or RCD) paperwork, and the vessel can be legally sold. You should, however, be mindful that there is a very small chance that there could be implications for future saleability or value of the vessel.

If being sold second hand, the vessel does not have to comply with the RCR unless the boat has been imported, is an ex-commercial craft, or the vessel has undergone a Major Craft Conversion.

 

 

Edited July 16 by IanD

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

There seems to be a few contradictions with there claim of all boats must have a RCD/RCR/PCA here’s another without WIN and unseen RCD paperwork🤔

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

The exception to the above, is for a vessel that has been self-built in its entirety (including the shell) by a DIY boatbuilder for their own personal use. However, if the vessel is placed on the market within 5 years, it must be CE marked to satisfy the requirements of the RCR (RCD). The vessel does not have to be complete for the 5 year period to start, but does have to have been used as a boat (e.g. cruised on a waterway).

 

And in answer to a question the EU have said that it need not be CE certified UNTIL it is sold - so (at say 20 years old) it is placed on the market it requires a PCA.

Maybe ABNB are not aware of that note from the EU

Edited July 16 by Alan de Enfield

[Tonka]

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And in answer to a question the EU have said that it need not be CE certified UNTIL it is sold - so (at say 20 years old) it is placed on the market it requires a PCA.

Maybe ABNB are not aware of that note from the EU

But we are not in the EU and a narrowboat is hardly likely to go to the EU

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Tonka said:

But we are not in the EU and a narrowboat is hardly likely to go to the EU

 

BUT WE HAVE AGREED TO FOLLOW THE EU REQUIREMENTS.

 

I have posted copies of the 2017 Act so you can see for yourself.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

BUT WE HAVE AGREED TO FOLLOW THE EU REQUIREMENTS.

 

We?

 

You might have agreed to follow some EU requirements, but I haven't.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

We?

 

You might have agreed to follow some EU requirements, but I haven't.

 

 

 

I forgot you live in the land of make believe where everything is how you think it should be and you are not a resident in the UK, so the UK agreements and legislation don't apply to you unless you want them to - a bit like a freeman of the land.

[Bee]

5 hours ago, Mike Tee said:

Not too sure about this 'five year rule' - can't copy and paste yet on this new to me tablet, but ABNB reckon that this has been legally challenged recently as the boat would need to be self built in its entirety including the shell

Our boats shell, without bollards, gas locker. locker lids and doors and with the rudder and skeg unfitted and no stern gear or anything came with a declaration that the boat complied with all necessary regulations. 

[Tacet]

43 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

BUT WE HAVE AGREED TO FOLLOW THE EU REQUIREMENTS.

 

I have posted copies of the 2017 Act so you can see for yourself.

Which is the 2017 Act, please?

 

As far as I can recall, nothing much has been provided to confirm the UK has agreed to adopt future EU Recreational Craft Directives. 

 

And if the UK did decide (or was otherwise obliged).to adopt a Directive, surely domestic legislation would be required.  Domestic legislation was required to bring in Directives when the UK was a member of the EU so it seems unlikely it is now an automated process.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

Which is the 2017 Act, please?

 

As far as I can recall, nothing much has been provided to confirm the UK has agreed to adopt future EU Recreational Craft Directives. 

 

And if the UK did decide (or was otherwise obliged).to adopt a Directive, surely domestic legislation would be required.  Domestic legislation was required to bring in Directives when the UK was a member of the EU so it seems unlikely it is now an automated process.

 

 

 

On Sunday I posted a screenshot of the 2017 Act introducing the RCR and stating that it would be amended in future in line with any EU amendments to the RCD.

 

It came into force 3rd August 2017

 

Here it is again :

 

 

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

2017 No. 737

CONSUMER PROTECTION

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Made

11th July 2017

Laid before Parliament

12th July 2017

Coming into force

3rd August 2017

 

The Secretary of State is a Minister designated(1) for the purposes of section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972(2) in respect of measures relating to craft intended for recreational purposes.

These Regulations make provision for a purpose mentioned in section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972 and it appears to the Secretary of State that it is expedient for certain references to provisions of EU instruments to be construed as references to those provisions as amended from time to time.

 

 

 

 

Legislative Background

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 implement Directive 2013/53/EU on recreational craft and personal watercraft. The EU Withdrawal Act 2018 preserved the 2017 Regulations and enabled them to be amended so as to continue to function effectively now the UK has left the EU. Accordingly, Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 see footnote 1 fixed any deficiencies that arose from the UK leaving the EU (such as references to EU institutions) and made specific provision for the GB market.

There is therefore one set of UK 2017 Regulations, but some of the provisions apply differently in NI under the terms of the Windsor Framework. References to the 2017 Regulations in this guidance are references to those Regulations as they apply in Great Britain.

Edited July 16 by Alan de Enfield

[Peanut]

Statutory guidance
Recreational Craft Regulations, 2017: Great Britain

Updated 7 November 2023

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/recreational-craft-regulations-2017/recreational-craft-regulations-2017-great-britain

 

There are later updates planed or made, see the link at the beginning of the document.

 

The legislation may be made by Order in Council.

 

Beaten to it by AdE.

Edited July 16 by Peanut
AdE

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Peanut said:

Beaten to it by AdE.

 

And I have already posted in a number of times over the years, the last time being Sunday just gone.

 

It is conveniently forgotten (or ignored) by those who says we are not legally obliged to implement the RCR / RCD

 

Edit for spooling erurs

Edited July 16 by Alan de Enfield

[Tacet]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

On Sunday I posted a screenshot of the 2017 Act introducing the RCR and stating that it would be amended in future in line with any EU amendments to the RCD.

 

It came into force 3rd August 2017

 

Here it is again :

 

 

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

2017 No. 737

CONSUMER PROTECTION

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Made

11th July 2017

Laid before Parliament

12th July 2017

Coming into force

3rd August 2017

 

The Secretary of State is a Minister designated(1) for the purposes of section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972(2) in respect of measures relating to craft intended for recreational purposes.

These Regulations make provision for a purpose mentioned in section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972 and it appears to the Secretary of State that it is expedient for certain references to provisions of EU instruments to be construed as references to those provisions as amended from time to time.

 

 

 

 

Legislative Background

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 implement Directive 2013/53/EU on recreational craft and personal watercraft. The EU Withdrawal Act 2018 preserved the 2017 Regulations and enabled them to be amended so as to continue to function effectively now the UK has left the EU. Accordingly, Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 see footnote 1 fixed any deficiencies that arose from the UK leaving the EU (such as references to EU institutions) and made specific provision for the GB market.

There is therefore one set of UK 2017 Regulations, but some of the provisions apply differently in NI under the terms of the Windsor Framework. References to the 2017 Regulations in this guidance are references to those Regulations as they apply in Great Britain.

It's a Statutory Instrument not an Act.

 

But where is the support for the assertion that the UK has to adopt EU Directives post Brexit.  Does it apply to all EU Directives or just some?

Edited July 16 by Tacet

[Peanut]

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

It's a Statutory Instrument not an Act.

 

But where is the support for the assertion that the UK has to adopt EU Directives post Brexit.  Does it apply to all EU Directives or just some?

We agreed to implement the RCD into the UK RCR, including amendments made by the EU to the RCD. It is in the preamble to the RCR. This will facilitate trade for boatbuilders with the EU. There is no general requirement to adopt EU directives since Brexit. However, some elements of EU Directives will be adopted, in some form, to facilitate trade.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And rather than arguing the toss, Some (not all brokers yet) are just saying that they will only sell boat with the correct paperwork.

 

From the ABNB website :

 

For your reassurance ABNB Ltd is a full member of British Marine Boat Retailers & Brokers Association. The Association has a strict code of practice and rigorous minimum standards designed to ensure the highest levels of service and protection to the vendor and buyer alike.

 

And from the Boat Retailers & Brokers Code of practice :

 

All craft offered for sale to conform with relevant legislation (RCD etc)

 

 

Abnb used to be a high end broker, but looks like times have changed.
 With regards to the above where are they saying “they will only sell boat with the correct paperwork”

they are obviously not complying with what you wrote and what you think they’re doing, you’ve just cut’ n’pasted extracts together??

 

“Boat Retailers & Brokers Code of practice :

All craft offered for sale to conform with relevant legislation (RCD etc”

 

 Have a look at this one, How can an un-signed and dated “Declaration of Conformity” be regarded as a legal document?

 

Edited July 16 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tonka]

9 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Abnb used to be a high end broker, but looks like times have changed.
 With regards to the above where are they saying “they will only sell boat with the correct paperwork”

they are obviously not complying with what you wrote and what you think they’re doing, you’ve just cut’ n’pasted extracts together??

 

“Boat Retailers & Brokers Code of practice :

All craft offered for sale to conform with relevant legislation (RCD etc”

 

 Have a look at this one, How can an un-signed and dated “Declaration of Conformity” be regarded as a legal document?

 

In 1999 when Andy Burnett still ran ABNB they would only take my 1983 built Mike Heywood under brokerage because I had bought a replacement boat through them.

Sold it for under 15k. Now on Apollo Duck asking 55k

[matty40s]

16 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Maybe ABNB are not aware of that note from the EU

ABNB, Braunston, Rugby Boats, Whilton/Venetian, Aquavista etc are all aware, I can assure you.

Edited July 17 by matty40s

[Alan de Enfield]

12 hours ago, Tacet said:

It's a Statutory Instrument not an Act.

 

According to the .Gov website it is still legislation.

 

Statutory instruments are the most common form of secondary (or delegated) legislation.

The power to make a statutory instrument is set out in an Act of Parliament and nearly always conferred on a Minister of the Crown. The Minister is then able to make law on the matters identified in the Act, and using the parliamentary procedure set out in the Act

 

 

10 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Have a look at this one, How can an un-signed and dated “Declaration of Conformity” be regarded as a legal document?

 

Does it have :

The name and address of the builder

Is the certificate of compliance numbered

Is the boat hull number / description listed

Does it have the RCR/RCD modules to which the boat was built listed

Does it have the Category

Does it have the load / number of persons

 

It should have a company stamp

 

Then it is a Statement of compliance.

Edited July 17 by Alan de Enfield

[Ronaldo47]

A Birth Certificate is an example of a legal document that is neither signed nor dated. 

[Tonka]

Just now, Ronaldo47 said:

A Birth Certificate is an example of a legal document that is neither signed nor dated. 

It must have the date of birth on so is dated

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Ronaldo47 said:

A Birth Certificate is an example of a legal document that is neither signed nor dated. 

 

 

Mine is both dated and signed (in ink) by the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages

 

 

[Peanut]

You don't usually get the Birth Certificate on the day the child is born.  The date of birth will not be the date the Certificate was issued, the date issued will be the date in the Register.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

According to the .Gov website it is still legislation.

 

Statutory instruments are the most common form of secondary (or delegated) legislation.

The power to make a statutory instrument is set out in an Act of Parliament and nearly always conferred on a Minister of the Crown. The Minister is then able to make law on the matters identified in the Act, and using the parliamentary procedure set out in the Act

 

 

 

Does it have :

The name and address of the builder

Is the certificate of compliance numbered

Is the boat hull number / description listed

Does it have the RCR/RCD modules to which the boat was built listed

Does it have the Category

Does it have the load / number of persons

 

It should have a company stamp

 

Then it is a Statement of compliance.

You keep going on about Abnb, so have a look at the sales brochures they say RCD not seen, we all know that means the boat hasn’t got one. So if they are complying with all the regs as you say. Why are they selling complying boats without seeing document's, according to you they’re refusing these boats, obviously not.

 

Edited July 17 by BoatinglifeupNorth