License fees for hire boat

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

Ah, is this a roundabout way of having a whinge about how unfair the CC surcharge might be? 

 

 

 

Oh no here we go!

It's back to the CCers issue again.

That's not the question 

 

[Paul C]

Have you seen a lot of hire boats today (its July)?

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

6 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Have you seen a lot of hire boats today (its July)?

Plenty... not as crazy as yesterday but still busy. One almost crashed into the supply boat.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2024 by Naartjie - Duck Hatch

[magnetman]

Everyone hates hire Boaters. 

 

Its just the way. 

 

There must be a study here for a psychology Dphil or something. 

 

A lot of cerebral activity going on. 

 

It seems to me that people out having a Good Time doing Boat related activities is a positive. As long as they don't

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

1 hour ago, Graham Davis said:

But it isn't a simple question, as has been pointed out to you.
And I don't actually think it is an "open" question, reading some of your comments.

@Graham Davis Please give us your opinion on hire boat licences and wether the amount covers their use of the canal system.

[Graham Davis]

Just now, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

@Graham Davis Please give us your opinion on hire boat licences and wether the amount covers their use of the canal system.

Fine
I think that the figures quoted for the hire boat licence is fine, as has been pointed out by others, and that you appear to have an agenda against hire boaters.

[Nightwatch]

We are ccers. We have been for more than ten years. We care for the system and look after it. Possibly more so than a non Ccer.

we top up with water once, possibly twice a week. We dispose of perhaps one bag of gash twice a week. We collect recycling annd dispose of anccordingly, if we ever find a facility suitable to dump it. We empty our Porta loo once a week. We use shoreside loos wherever possible. One on the bank worth two in the tank.

 

We are not well off, and even if we wanted to we couldn’t afford a property ashore.

We enjoy our way of life, but as I see it, it is going to get more expensive. To the extent we may have to find a way of giving up boating. Sad.

And no, I don’t know the solution. I have loads of stuff I could say and moan about but there are folks on here that take great pleasure of having a go at anything I say.

 

Please don’t tar all contiinuous  cruisers with the same brush.

 

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

1 minute ago, Graham Davis said:

Fine
I think that the figures quoted for the hire boat licence is fine, as has been pointed out by others, and that you appear to have an agenda against hire boaters.

Not at all 

As I'm trying to say it's an open question.

But it does seem to make certain people rather anxious...I wonder why?

 

[agg221]

I first went on a hire boat holiday in 1986 I think, then again in 1988. I then started hiring in 1992 and continued off and on until 2021 when we bought Oates.

 

Running a hire business has to allow the owners to make a living after costs.

A week's hire is more expensive than a week's package holiday in the Med.

I don't see any evidence that hire boat operators are getting rich.

 

On that basis, I think the hire boat licence fee achieves a fair balance in keeping hiring businesses viable whilst contributing appropriately to the costs.

 

Alec

[Nightwatch]

We meet many hire boaters. On the whole very nice people enjoying our national asset. Always willing to accept offered help or advice. We are on the Staffs and Worcs Canal presently. Yes there are boats passing far too quickly. Not all hirerers. Spell check. 

[Arthur Marshall]

41 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

We are ccers. We have been for more than ten years. We care for the system and look after it. Possibly more so than a non Ccer.
 

Bit like everything else, I'm sure you care more for the system than some moorers, and less than others. As Robert Sheckley so wisely said, we all have our place in the stew. The network would be a lot worse off without CCers, home moorers, hirers and share boaters.

44 minutes ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

Not at all 

As I'm trying to say it's an open question.

But it does seem to make certain people rather anxious...I wonder why?

 

Can't say I've spotted any anxiety. The only people who can guage what licence fees should be with any accuracy are CRT. The hire fleets provide a big service to us all as a source for the essentials, and keep engineers in work and available. The rates they pay seem fair enough, what I pay as a home moorer is OK, and continuous cruisers are still getting a bargain at just over half what I pay. I'm not sure what the question is you think you're asking - everyone so far has said what the fleets pay is fine.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

@Graham Davis Please give us your opinion on hire boat licences and wether the amount covers their use of the canal system.

Why?

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I doubt that Hire boaters make as much use of the C&RT facilities (Bins, water, toilets etc) as CCers do.

 

CCers are getting a bargain and should be happy with the fees.

 

I see hire boats dumping more bin bags in CRT bins on a single trip than I’d dump in maybe 6 weeks, hire boats will normally have enough occupants to need refilling the boat with water several times over a trip. So a single hire boat over the course of a season most likely gets better use  of the facilities than the average boater with or without a home mooring. 

Who uses more is pretty  meaningless. 

CRT are simply charging businesses for making money on their waterways and want a cut of the profits. And rightly so. Nowt to do with amount of bin bags. 
 

[Arthur Marshall]

4 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

Who uses more is pretty  meaningless. 

CRT are simply charging businesses for making money on their waterways and want a cut of the profits. And rightly so. Nowt to do with amount of bin bags. 
 

Common sense will get you nowhere...

[Paul C]

15 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

 

I see hire boats dumping more bin bags in CRT bins on a single trip than I’d dump in maybe 6 weeks, hire boats will normally have enough occupants to need refilling the boat with water several times over a trip. So a single hire boat over the course of a season most likely gets better use  of the facilities than the average boater with or without a home mooring. 

Who uses more is pretty  meaningless. 

CRT are simply charging businesses for making money on their waterways and want a cut of the profits. And rightly so. Nowt to do with amount of bin bags. 
 

 

Are you a single-hander, when it comes to staying on a mooring spot with your boat?

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

…mmm…seems like you’re a bit of a single hander 

[DandV]

3 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

We are ccers. We have been for more than ten years. We care for the system and look after it. Possibly more so than a non Ccer.

we top up with water once, possibly twice a week. We dispose of perhaps one bag of gash twice a week. We collect recycling annd dispose of anccordingly, if we ever find a facility suitable to dump it. We empty our Porta loo once a week. We use shoreside loos wherever possible. One on the bank worth two in the tank.

 

We are not well off, and even if we wanted to we couldn’t afford a property ashore.

We enjoy our way of life, but as I see it, it is going to get more expensive. To the extent we may have to find a way of giving up boating. Sad.

And no, I don’t know the solution. I have loads of stuff I could say and moan about but there are folks on here that take great pleasure of having a go at anything I say.

 

Please don’t tar all contiinuous  cruisers with the same brush.

 

I think one of the very  attractive things about your inland  waterways is the diversity.

Not only in the landscape and hydrology, but also in the people.

The mix of hireboaters, continuous cruisers, holiday boaters, working and retired, overseas residents and even near continuous moorers,

Although the dominance of this group detracts in some relitively well defined areas around residential honeypots.

 

While some of the boating skills displayed immediately after changeover day are undeniably questionable, the improvement in skills over a hire week are evident. We all had to start somewhere. 

I think the main problem for hireboaters is setting over ambitious itineraries, to get to some place and back, or around a ring, in the time available.

This is a problem particularly evident on the Llangollen canal where the iconic places are concentrated at the remote end.

 

The real question is are boaters, all of them, paying a fair amount to keep an ancient high maintenance asset sufficiently functional?

In the absence of any one else their hands up to pay, the declining availability of open navigations suggests that they are not yet paying enough, fair or otherwise.

 

 

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

8 hours ago, DandV said:

I think one of the very  attractive things about your inland  waterways is the diversity.

Not only in the landscape and hydrology, but also in the people.

The mix of hireboaters, continuous cruisers, holiday boaters, working and retired, overseas residents and even near continuous moorers,

Although the dominance of this group detracts in some relitively well defined areas around residential honeypots.

 

While some of the boating skills displayed immediately after changeover day are undeniably questionable, the improvement in skills over a hire week are evident. We all had to start somewhere. 

I think the main problem for hireboaters is setting over ambitious itineraries, to get to some place and back, or around a ring, in the time available.

This is a problem particularly evident on the Llangollen canal where the iconic places are concentrated at the remote end.

 

The real question is are boaters, all of them, paying a fair amount to keep an ancient high maintenance asset sufficiently functional?

In the absence of any one else their hands up to pay, the declining availability of open navigations suggests that they are not yet paying enough, fair or otherwise.

 

 

Well said 

[Paul C]

9 hours ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

 

I see hire boats dumping more bin bags in CRT bins on a single trip than I’d dump in maybe 6 weeks, hire boats will normally have enough occupants to need refilling the boat with water several times over a trip. So a single hire boat over the course of a season most likely gets better use  of the facilities than the average boater with or without a home mooring. 

Who uses more is pretty  meaningless. 

CRT are simply charging businesses for making money on their waterways and want a cut of the profits. And rightly so. Nowt to do with amount of bin bags. 
 

 

Occupancy is and isn't an issue. Yes, there will be a greater mass of rubbish/toilet waste/water deposited or taken on at services, but this only reflects the variable cost of providing them. The fixed cost must still be spent of all the infrastructure, lighting/heating, etc etc. And of course, moving boats can 'cope' with fewer services - often on a 10+ hour day, a hire boat will pass 3, 4 or more services where they could stop at. The CCer who moves more slowly sticks around the one.

[LadyG]

20 hours ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

I don't quite understand. CCers have an additional charged added to their licence fee. The reason stated was because of their perceived additional use of the system. How are hire boats different. Double the licence fee doesn't cover the amount of use.

 

I am near a hire base, most of the boats are tied up. 

Ive never had a problem with hirers bashing locks, they are well crewed, and generally cheerfull and helpful.

CRT are always quick to respond to stopages near a hire base, this also helps leisure boaters 

Im sure the CRT have a greater understanding of run̈ning their business than any one random boater. They may have different priorities to me, but i knew this when i bought a boat.

Edited July 5, 2024 by LadyG

[Arthur Marshall]

12 hours ago, DandV said:

The real question is are boaters, all of them, paying a fair amount to keep an ancient high maintenance asset sufficiently functional?

In the absence of any one else their hands up to pay, the declining availability of open navigations suggests that they are not yet paying enough, fair or otherwise.

 

 

No, it isn't the real question. The question is, who uses the network most?

And the answer is hikers, dog walkers, people pushing prams, cyclists and fishermen. Boaters are a pretty low proportion. They really just keep it ticking over and stop it turning into a sewer full of old sofas, shopping trolleys and dead fish. So the bulk of the cost should logically fall on the taxpayer, as it has ever since it ceased being a commercial proposition.

Either that, or re-commercialise it by renting a lot more towpath space out for mooring in the honeypot towns, at a proper commercial rate, and a stack more towpath moorings for those who now overstay. Holiday boaters in general only want the pretty out of the way bits.

If it's a national park it should be paid for nationally.

[Tony Brooks]

A point that has been tangentially discussed, but not in any depth, and that is how high a hire fee the market can bear. I have a little experience of this, in that I was involved with a large Thames hire fleet in the 60s and 70s when the river was full of hire boats from many bases, many with a fairly long season. Then came the start of cheaper package holidays and within a few years the number of boats and bases contracted massively, so today there seems to be only two larger independent hire fleets and Le Boat operating for a couple of bases. This tells me that the market for UK hire boat holidays is not as large as people think, and the ability to raise prices is limited by demand. It may well be that CaRT have decided that if the cost of a hire boat licence was significantly raised, then the effect would likely be a reduction of income as fleets sell up, and no doubt sell their sites for development.

 

I can't understand why a new, low post count member who has had a number of realities pointed out to them keeps on scratching the itch. I agree that it seems to be a straight forward whinge about being asked to pay what CaRT think the market can bear.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

13 hours ago, Paul C said:

. The CCer who moves more slowly sticks around the one.

Thats your experience as a single hander? 

[Arthur Marshall]

9 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I can't understand why a new, low post count member who has had a number of realities pointed out to them keeps on scratching the itch. I agree that it seems to be a straight forward whinge about being asked to pay what CaRT think the market can bear.

I think it's just part of the "everyone should pay more except me" philosophy.

[DandV]

11 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

No, it isn't the real question. The question is, who uses the network most?

And the answer is hikers, dog walkers, people pushing prams, cyclists and fishermen. Boaters are a pretty low proportion. They really just keep it ticking over and stop it turning into a sewer full of old sofas, shopping trolleys and dead fish. So the bulk of the cost should logically fall on the taxpayer, as it has ever since it ceased being a commercial proposition.

Either that, or re-commercialise it by renting a lot more towpath space out for mooring in the honeypot towns, at a proper commercial rate, and a stack more towpath moorings for those who now overstay. Holiday boaters in general only want the pretty out of the way bits.

If it's a national park it should be paid for nationally.

Now is the time to agitate for more National funding, for what is a very significant national asset and significant part of Britain's unique identity.

To describe it as National Park with unequalled spread is not wrong.

What seems to be lacking is the passion provided by the likes of Tom Rolt, and the organisational zeal provided by the infant IWA that 

provided the real impetus to preserve and then restore this fabulous national asset.

Reopening abandoned canals was a frontier that appealed to the young at the time. 

And the young then have got old, and the frontier has faded, and so lost much of its appeal to youngsters for it's freedom in crude craft, and crude tools, with with minimal regulatory oversight to carve away back into the landscape.

I am not sure how this challenge should now be reserected.

But a bit of political agitation at the moment can only help the cause.