License fees for hire boat

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

Given the amount of hire boat bashing into locks and bridges that has been happening on the Llangollen this week. Not to mention the bank erosion due excessive speed.

I was wandering if the hire boat companies pay an appropriately higher licence fee to cover the amount of wear and tear they cause on the canal system. 

Bearing in mind that the CCers are already being held to account.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2024 by Naartjie - Duck Hatch

[nicknorman]

12 minutes ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

Given the amount of hire boat bashing into locks and bridges that has been happening on the Llangollen this week. Not to mention the bank erosion due excessive speed.

I was wandering if the hire boat companies pay an appropriately higher licence fee to cover the amount of wear and tear they cause on the canal system. 

Bearing in mind that the CCers are already being held to account.

 

Yes a commercial hire boat licence is a lot more than a leisure licence, about £2500 for a 59’ narrowboat.

Edited July 4, 2024 by nicknorman

[Paul C]

Yes its about 3x as much, and with tighter rules surrounding boat equipment, mooring and facilities requirements

[john6767]

The licence fees are all on the CRT web site, it is about double a private licence for a hire boat licence.  I guess you could say that a not really enough given they are being used for a good chunk of the year.

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

22 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Yes its about 3x as much, and with tighter rules surrounding boat equipment, mooring and facilities requirements

 

My question is, do the hire boat companies make a fair contribution to  cover maintenance needed due to their existence.

£1,400 (18m) is what a CCer would pay.

So the hire boat licence is about double. I my opinion the rules around boating equipment and mooring don't really add much to the maintenance of the canal system.

If CRT are looking for additional income, surely this is a relatively untapped source. Or maybe the old boy system is at play here.🥴

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2024 by Naartjie - Duck Hatch

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

 

My question is, do the hire boat companies make a fair contribution to  cover maintenance needed due to their existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

13 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Yes

Really 🙀 

[nicknorman]

Just now, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

Really 🙀 

 

Your question mentions “fair” but this is an unanswerable question as everyone has a different idea of what is “fair” especially when the additional wear and tear on the system can’t realistically be quantified. But they do pay more. I don’t think anyone gets very rich operating hire boats so there probably isn’t a large chunk of wealth kicking around to be tapped. And hire boats create an input channel for the next generation of owner-boaters, which helps the whole thing persist.

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

Just now, nicknorman said:

 

Your question mentions “fair” but this is an unanswerable question as everyone has a different idea of what is “fair” especially when the additional wear and tear on the system can’t realistically be quantified. But they do pay more. I don’t think anyone gets very rich operating hire boats so there probably isn’t a large chunk of wealth kicking around to be tapped. And hire boats create an input channel for the next generation of owner-boaters, which helps the whole thing persist.

I don't quite understand. CCers have an additional charged added to their licence fee. The reason stated was because of their perceived additional use of the system. How are hire boats different. Double the licence fee doesn't cover the amount of use.

 

[nicknorman]

8 minutes ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

I don't quite understand. CCers have an additional charged added to their licence fee. The reason stated was because of their perceived additional use of the system. How are hire boats different. Double the licence fee doesn't cover the amount of use.

 

 

I think your point is about a matter of degree? Yes CCers are now charged more because they use more resources that cost money - I am thinking of tap water, rubbish disposal, elsan efluent etc. and they do this 365 days/year. They may or may not use the infrastructure (locks etc) more than a leisure boat.

Hire boats are generally only out for about 1/2 the year and quite a lot of water, rubbish, pump out is disposed of at the base on turnaround days, so the amount of facilities used in my first group, is probably less than for a CCer (depending on the number of occupants of the boat I guess.). But they do pay more. Maybe you think that the "more" is not enough, but that is just your opinion because as I said, there is no scientific "right answer".

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

2 hours ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

I don't quite understand. CCers have an additional charged added to their licence fee. The reason stated was because of their perceived additional use of the system. How are hire boats different. Double the licence fee doesn't cover the amount of use.

 

But I don’s see hire boaters moored on visitor moorings for weeks, filling the bins with boat rubbish as they renovate their boat on the tow path, unlike some CCers, I imagine they use little of the boating services, showers, Elsen disposal, water compared to others when they’re out for a week. 
 The other thing is hire boat companies could be feeling the pinch also with rising costs, so to add more to costings could see a few close. The hire boaters what I’ve seen do tend to moor up next to pubs and local amenities so do also contribute to canal side businesses,  so not really a bad thing, even though some do tend to go a bit too fast sometimes.
 

Edited July 4, 2024 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[David Mack]

Hire boating is expensive as holidays go, and there are fewer hire companies about now than at their height in the 70s/80s. Nobody is getting rich running a hire boat company. So increasing the hire boat licence charge is simply going to result in the cost of hire boats going up, and fewer hire boats on the system. The net result might be less wear and tear caused by hire boats, but quite possibly also no increase in the overall amount of hire boat licence fee received by CRT. And fewer hire boaters means a lower profile of boating generally, a reduced pipeline of potential future boat owners and with that less leverage on government for funding.

The overall impact may be small in terms of the bigger picture, but I can't see it being obviously positive.

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

4 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

But I don’s see hire boaters moored on visitor moorings for weeks, filling the bins with boat rubbish as they renovate their boat on the tow path, unlike some CCers, I imagine they use little of the boating services, showers, Elsen disposal, water compared to others when they’ve out for a week. 
 

I agree that some CCers abuse the system. I am not pro or anti any group. 

I just asked a simple question 

Do hire boat companies pay their fair share. It's an open question 

[Paul C]

7 minutes ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

 

I just asked a simple question 

 

 

It seems you asked the question but want a particular answer; instead of other answers as supplied so far. If you want the answer you desire, face the mirror and ask it?

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

15 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

It seems you asked the question but want a particular answer; instead of other answers as supplied so far. If you want the answer you desire, face the mirror and ask it?

🥱

[cuthound]

As already said the number of hire bases is in decline, so increasing their costs is likely to further reduce the number of hire bases.

 

Hire bases provide facilities for all boaters, such as diesel, pump-outs & rubbish disposal, water and maintenance & repair facilities. Competition keeps the costs of these facilities down

 

Do you really want to decrease their number further?

Edited July 4, 2024 by cuthound
Missing letter

[booke23]

29 minutes ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

Do hire boat companies pay their fair share. It's an open question 

 

On balance, Yes.

 

As already pointed out they spend half the year not moving tied up at base, and use CRT facilities less than CCers.  

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

2 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

On balance, Yes.

 

As already pointed out they spend half the year not moving tied up at base, and use CRT facilities less than CCers.  

Fair point.

[Stroudwater1]

I suspect that some of the boat share owners cause as much damage as Hireboaters do.
 

I don’t believe they pay a greater licence fee but probably on average cover as many if not more miles than hire boats do. I wouldn’t say they necessarily get driven any better on average though there are some excellent helmsfolk and crew on some hire boats and some on boat shares too. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

2 hours ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

I agree that some CCers abuse the system. I am not pro or anti any group. 

I just asked a simple question 

Do hire boat companies pay their fair share. It's an open question 

 I think they do, probably in ways you or others may not realise, a dearer business licence, running cost of a home base for their boats, probably leased off CaRT. If a large fleet they’ll need to employ service staff for the boats, a mechanic, more BSS certification, diesel, gas. So they’ll probably support/pay a lot of people that rely on canal work for a living. 
 People moan about hire boats and the actions of a few, but when I was down South last month I saw more hire boats moving than leisure boats, so would the canal system be a poorer place without them? I think so. The ones I’ve chatted to have always been decent people and have enjoyed their time on the water.

 The other thing is, how many people have had a hire boat holiday, enjoyed it so much and have bought a boat? Take @IanD for example, without his hire boat holidays, he may not of bought a boat and be paying a licence. So he’s supported a Canal business and CaRT financially, like many others. So good luck to Hire Companies👍

 

Edited July 4, 2024 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[robtheplod]

42 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I suspect that some of the boat share owners cause as much damage as Hireboaters do.
 

I don’t believe they pay a greater licence fee but probably on average cover as many if not more miles than hire boats do. I wouldn’t say they necessarily get driven any better on average though there are some excellent helmsfolk and crew on some hire boats and some on boat shares too. 

When we had a share on a boat i was doubly careful not to knock it as this would be frowned on by the elders in the syndicate!

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I suspect that some of the boat share owners cause as much damage as Hireboaters do.
 

I don’t believe they pay a greater licence fee but probably on average cover as many if not more miles than hire boats do. I wouldn’t say they necessarily get driven any better on average though there are some excellent helmsfolk and crew on some hire boats and some on boat shares too. 

 

If the ownership of the boat is registered to a company they pay the same licence as a hire boat.

 

If it is registered to one of the co-owners then they pay the same licence as a private owner.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

 

My question is, do the hire boat companies make a fair contribution to  cover maintenance needed due to their existence.

£1,400 (18m) is what a CCer would pay.

So the hire boat licence is about double. I my opinion the rules around boating equipment and mooring don't really add much to the maintenance of the canal system.

If CRT are looking for additional income, surely this is a relatively untapped source. Or maybe the old boy system is at play here.🥴

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed just goes to show that CCers are being undercharged.

 

A CCer pays £1400 for 12 months - 365 days per year usage,

A Hire company pays some 2x that amount and the boat is probably only used for 8 months (240 days) of the year.

 

I doubt that Hire boaters make as much use of the C&RT facilities (Bins, water, toilets etc) as CCers do.

 

CCers are getting a bargain and should be happy with the fees.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

I don't quite understand. CCers have an additional charged added to their licence fee. The reason stated was because of their perceived additional use of the system. How are hire boats different. Double the licence fee doesn't cover the amount of use.

 

 

 

Ah, is this a roundabout way of having a whinge about how unfair the CC surcharge might be? 

 

 

 

[Graham Davis]

3 hours ago, Naartjie - Duck Hatch said:

I agree that some CCers abuse the system. I am not pro or anti any group. 

I just asked a simple question 

Do hire boat companies pay their fair share. It's an open question 

But it isn't a simple question, as has been pointed out to you.
And I don't actually think it is an "open" question, reading some of your comments.