trouble steering

[laurenen]

Hello! 

 

We recently bought a dutch barge, our first boat (brave!). She is 13 ft wide and weighs around 26 ton. 

 

We have recently had some trouble telling her where to go. Tiller telling her to go left, however she was drifting out to the right. We did some good blasts of reverse to get rid of any potential weeds around the prop and put her into forward again, however the bow just wasnt lining up with where we were pointing the tiller.... We had to end up using the barge pole to push her towards the path, pulling her towards the other boats moored further up, and leaving her there >.< 

 

We were on the grand union coming up to Hayes and Harlington tube, trying to get on the Paddington arm. 

 

Does anyone have any experience of this? Is it my technique or is there something wrong with the tiller etc? 

 

Had some boat mechanics on board who have remarked at the smooth operation of the tiller, it was recently greased so that shouldnt be the issue. 

 

Any and all advice on troubleshooting welcome! 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Welcome to the forum. Can you confirm if it is tiller steering and not wheel? Wind and current can affect where you go dramatically. I don't know the junction concerned.

How much power did you have on the prop when trying to steer? Was the prop going forward, or reverse? Steering on this sort of boat, with a relatively small rudder, relies on the prop throwing large volumes of water at the rudder to get the boat to turn. If you want to put the boat in to a steeper turn at slow speed, you open the throttle up, rather than put more steering angle on the tiller. Counterintuitive to some one who has previously only driven a car. Steering when the gearbox is in reverse is largely ineffective. In forward, beyond a certain steering angle, the flow of water over the rudder effectively stalls and more steering angle has no effect.

[Tam & Di]

Have you steered the barge on open water such as the Thames before coming on to the canal? Indeed, have you any prior boating experience before you bought this barge? If it is a tjalk or similar converted ex-sailing craft they can always be a bit of a pig, especially if the stern has not been modified to get a good flow of water to the rudder. In addition, tjalk conversions seldom have sufficient ballast, which means side winds will have appreciable effect too. Also you don't mention the length, and a short relatively fat boat will have more issues than a longer vessel.

 

If you have effectivey zero previous experience it may be that you are trying to go too slowly - try again with rather more power on.

 

To eleborate on my comment re stern modification, the rudder of an ex-sailing vessel will be a flat blade pivoting soley on its leading edge, whereas the rudder of a motor vessel will have part of the blade in front of the pivot point. With the former style, when you move the rudder over to one side 50% of your power still pushes the boat forward - only 50% is acting to turn the boat. With the balanced rudder, when you put it over to one side far more than 50% deflects the thrust and acts to move the stern in the direction required. I hope that makes sense.  🤔

Edited July 1 by Tam & Di
clarification

[Alan de Enfield]

What is the draft ?

 

If she is in shallow water and sitting in the mud, it won't make much difference which way the tiller is, she'll just go the way she is pointing.

[Tam & Di]

That shouldn't be the case on the lower Grand Union - assuming of course that the OP is steering down the centre and not trying to keep to one side. 😀

[Bee]

It can be awkward, if you are steering a boat along a narrow channel (which a 13` wide boat on the GU certainly is) it will tend to seek the side of the channel, there is all sorts of science as to why this happens but all boats suffer from this, narrow boats in tunnels and great big ships on the Suez canal and there is not a lot you can do about it except keep in the middle whenever you can. A delicate touch on the wheel or tiller and avoiding zig zagging is best and it takes time to get the hang of it, some of us are still bouncing off the sides after many years of steering boats around and you can always blame the wind if you end up in the bushes.

[blackrose]

I was thinking about the draft as well. My boat's 12ft wide and I used to be on the lower GU without a problem but my boat only draws 2ft 2in. 

 

About 20 years ago I got talking to a guy on a tjalk at Batchworth lock and he told me his raw water mudbox kept getting blocked and he kept having to stop to unblock the mud, which to me suggested the boat was churning up the bottom. 

 

Before you conclude there's something wrong with the steering get the boat out onto a river.

[Slim]

I have zero experience of dutch barges but..........I also know the general area that the OP is in. Several mentions have been made of a tiller but none of a wheel so am assuming that it's steered by tiller. Is it possible that the tiller arm has moved on the rudder post? Is the rudder blade visible and does it correspond with the tiller arm itself.?    

[Tonka]

Have the people ever steered a boat before. Are they expecting it to react like a car I.e instantly. 

I know a lot of pilots struggled flying a 747 jumbo jet because they would roll the control column to turn the aircraft and return. Then when nothing had happened they would try again but the aircraft had started to roll from the first input and now the craft would oversteer because of the second input.

[bizzard]

31 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Have the people ever steered a boat before. Are they expecting it to react like a car I.e instantly. 

I know a lot of pilots struggled flying a 747 jumbo jet because they would roll the control column to turn the aircraft and return. Then when nothing had happened they would try again but the aircraft had started to roll from the first input and now the craft would oversteer because of the second input.

One of those crashed near here about 20 years ago, a Korean air cargo plane. Took off from Stansted and crassh about 10 miles out near Takley. Caused by the captains faulty artificial horizon meter. He was bombastic. His co pilot and flight engineer warned him that their meters were showing heavy list to port which was correct, the capt wouldn't listen to them and the plane screwed into the ground.

[Tam & Di]

There was a 747 pilot who owned a boat at our moorings, and he always switched his engine off as he came in to moor and drift on in. I did ask if he did that as he landed at Heathrow, but he'd never thought about that before.  🤔

[bizzard]

After the Korean air crash expert pilot training chaps were sent from the west to Korea to teach proper pleasant co ordination between  captains and their crews.

[Tonka]

16 minutes ago, Tam &amp; Di said:

There was a 747 pilot who owned a boat at our moorings, and he always switched his engine off as he came in to moor and drift on in. I did ask if he did that as he landed at Heathrow, but he'd never thought about that before.  🤔

did he move to 777's and was he the guy who landed short at LHR. As everybody walked away and it was in airport grounds it was classed as a landing

[bizzard]

Anyway I've heard of the Flying Dutchman but I doubt laurenen owns a flying Dutch barge.

[Mad Harold]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

Anyway I've heard of the Flying Dutchman but I doubt laurenen owns a flying Dutch barge.

Ah, but has Laurenen sold her soul to the Devil as the Flying Dutchman did?

Might be worth a try.😰

[laurenen]

hello everyone! 

 

thank you all for your responses, what a lovely welcome to the canalworld forum 😘

 

The draft of the boat is 2ft, it is 57ft long. 

 

I guess we are just getting used to steering such a beast. There's much to consider regarding current, wind etc and also getting stuck in mud / on a bike or whatever lies beneath. 

 

Good news is there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the boat per se, just our technique! Easy to get a bit freaked out when the boat is veering to the far bank and stinging nettles and brambles are encroaching. Barge pole comes in handy in such situations. 

 

Headed up into London now, hoping to make it to Camden and then on to Haggerston tomorrow. 

[bizzard]

14 minutes ago, laurenen said:

hello everyone! 

 

thank you all for your responses, what a lovely welcome to the canalworld forum 😘

 

The draft of the boat is 2ft, it is 57ft long. 

 

I guess we are just getting used to steering such a beast. There's much to consider regarding current, wind etc and also getting stuck in mud / on a bike or whatever lies beneath. 

 

Good news is there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the boat per se, just our technique! Easy to get a bit freaked out when the boat is veering to the far bank and stinging nettles and brambles are encroaching. Barge pole comes in handy in such situations. 

 

Headed up into London now, hoping to make it to Camden and then on to Haggerston tomorrow. 

I take your barge is wheel steered, always awkward on narrow canals untill used to it.

[Mad Harold]

3 hours ago, Tonka said:

Have the people ever steered a boat before. Are they expecting it to react like a car I.e instantly. 

I know a lot of pilots struggled flying a 747 jumbo jet because they would roll the control column to turn the aircraft and return. Then when nothing had happened they would try again but the aircraft had started to roll from the first input and now the craft would oversteer because of the second input.

It's not only large aircraft that have a delay between control input and the response.

Quite a few little aircraft are the same.When I was flying it was known as PIO. (Pilot induced oscillation)

[ditchcrawler]

If you look back at the wake of most first time boaters its quite zigzagged 

[Sea Dog]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If you look back at the wake of most first time boaters its quite zigzagged 

Perhaps they're worried about being torpedoed?

[system 4-50]

3 hours ago, laurenen said:

Barge pole comes in handy in such situations. 

Nooooooo!   

I find it difficult to define when it is reasonable to use a barge pole - others may do better, but here is my effort:

Never use a barge pole when the boat is still moving.  Stop the boat first it you feel you must use it.

Otherwise you are likely to break the pole and/or injure yourself.

In 10 years of boating I think I used my pole 2 or 3 times.