Victron MPPT terminals

[blackrose]

I bought the TR version of the 150/60 Victron MPPT Smartsolar with screw terminals.

 

I'm surprised it has such small terminal connectors. The battery cable terminals are the same size as the PV terminals (35mm2 max) which seems odd.

 

My battery cables are 40mm2 and they went into the Epever ok but the Victron's terminals are so close together I can't connect it. 

 

It really seems like poor design to me. Where's the cable separation? Compare the Victron to the Epever which is much better. 

 

Also with the Victron you're relying on the terminals themselves to carry the weight of the cable. The Epever has big black clamps. 

 

This is my first piece of victron equipment and I've got to say that so far I'm not impressed. It's poor design.

 

 

 

My battery cables are obviously too large. If I want to connect a couple of inches of thinner battery cable to the ends what sort of connectors should I use? Is there something that could screw to the bulkhead to support the cables, since the MPPT has no cable clamps?

Edited June 25, 2024 by blackrose

[Sailbadthesinner]

Controller should be mounted close to the batteries so at 60Amp max current even 35mm2 cable is overkill. 16mm2 would easily handle the current with negligible voltage drop.

I wouldn't join thin and thick cables together, run new cables straight to battery (via fuse). You could secure the cables with cleats.

 

[Paringa]

Could these help?

 

Heavy Duty Brass Copper Tube Pins 10mm² 16mm² 25mm² 35mm² 50mm² 70mm² 95mm² | eBay

[dmr]

Victron is good stuff and the prices are now reasonable, their terminals are possibly their only weakness.

[blackrose]

Yes I've managed to wedge the cables in and separated them with a piece of plastic. Just a temporary solution until I work out what to do long term.

 

2 hours ago, Sailbadthesinner said:

Controller should be mounted close to the batteries so at 60Amp max current even 35mm2 cable is overkill. 

 

 

If 35mm2 cable is overkill why does the controller have 35mm2 terminals? That's what it says in the specs.

 

My controller is about 2m from the batteries so 35 or 40mm2 cable isn't overkill. That's as close as I can get the controller as possible unless I mount it in the engine hole and that's not ideal.

Edited June 25, 2024 by blackrose

[blackrose]

By the way, the installation instructions for the Smartsolar state it should be mounted vertically on a non-flammable surface. Does anyone actually do this? I've just mounted mine onto the oak-faced ply lining.

 

I put some big nuts between the heat sink mounting holes and the lining so the feet are about 8mm away from the lining, but that was just to increase the gap to try and increase airflow behind the heatsink.

 

Edited June 26, 2024 by blackrose

[Jen-in-Wellies]

16 hours ago, blackrose said:

If 35mm2 cable is overkill why does the controller have 35mm2 terminals? That's what it says in the specs.

It is overkill for a short cable run. Not for a longer one, which could happen in some installations, where the batts are a longer distance from the MPPT. Victron blue boxes go in to all sorts of boats, sea going as well as inland, as well as land based installations. The 35mm2 is a maximum. The terminals clamp the multistrand cable between two flat surfaces as the screw is tightened, so can cope with different size cables.

I do agree about the lack of cable support/clamping though. A similar problem with some of their inverter/chargers, where three pin shore line in and AC out plugs can pull out under the weight from their arctic cables, if the cables are not supported close to.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

It is overkill for a short cable run. Not for a longer one, which could happen in some installations, where the batts are a longer distance from the MPPT. 

 

Yes, such as my installation. Sailbadthesinner was referring to my installation when he said 35mm2 cable was overkill, so that's also what I was referring to when I said it's not.

 

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I do agree about the lack of cable support/clamping though. A similar problem with some of their inverter/chargers, where three pin shore line in and AC out plugs can pull out under the weight from their arctic cables, if the cables are not supported close to.

 

To be honest I'm amazed that Victron appliances without cable support clamps pass the various electrical & consumer safety regulations. I have PV cables carrying potentially lethal voltages just hanging from the terminals of my MPPT. If I accidentally knocked them and they came away it could be very dangerous. I'll have to do something about that.

Edited June 26, 2024 by blackrose

[Sea Dog]

On 26/06/2024 at 13:23, blackrose said:

I have PV cables carrying potentially lethal voltages just hanging from the terminals of my MPPT. If I accidentally knocked them and they came away it could be very dangerous. I'll have to do something about that.

Yep, cable clips. I can't imagine why, given you obviously realise there's an issue, you didn't do that immediately. 

[GUMPY]

The cables in and out of my MPPT are P-clipped to the wall below it.

[blackrose]

This is my solution to the great Victron cable clamping crisis. The PV cables are just cable tied to the negative battery cable for support.

 

 

3 hours ago, GUMPY said:

The cables in and out of my MPPT are P-clipped to the wall below it.

 

The problem is that the bigger the units get the further the terminals are away from the wall. The terminals on my 150/60 unit are about 2" away so clipping them to the wall isn't really a very good solution.

Edited June 27, 2024 by blackrose

[blackrose]

3 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Yep, cable clips. I can't imagine why, given you obviously realise there's an issue, you didn't do that immediately. 

 

You can't imagine I didn't already think of that? 🤔

 

The terminals are too far away from the wall to clip them so they're properly supported. Perhaps on some of the smaller Victron units that would work but not on mine.

 

It's clearly poor product design. The final consumer shouldn't need to clip cables to a wall, and there's nothing in the installation instructions about doing so, so Victron have obviously overlooked this safety aspect. Cable clamps should be integral to any electrical product. Even cheap wall plugs have integral clamps.

Edited June 27, 2024 by blackrose

[Sea Dog]

I'm sure you did think of it, but you haven't come up with a solution other than blaming Victron for poor design, which is not something I've seen in the Victron products I have fitted.

 

That being the case, your cables remain at risk (which I can see you don't want) but there's more than one way to skin the unsupported cables cat. Treating them like flex into a plug top with just a cable clamp in the terminal isn't one of them though as it doesn't stop them flapping about and is probably why Victron don't offer it.

 

By way of suggestion, since it may be helpful, fitting a raised batten to the bulkhead to support the clips might be one solution, whilst routing the cables at a reasonable bend radius back to the bulkhead for clipping might be another. The latter is how I've supported the Victron MPPT cables it in own boat.

[Baralacha]

8 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

I'm sure you did think of it, but you haven't come up with a solution other than blaming Victron for poor design, which is not something I've seen in the Victron products I have fitted.

 

That being the case, your cables remain at risk (which I can see you don't want) but there's more than one way to skin the unsupported cables cat. Treating them like flex into a plug top with just a cable clamp in the terminal isn't one of them though as it doesn't stop them flapping about and is probably why Victron don't offer it.

 

By way of suggestion, since it may be helpful, fitting a raised batten to the bulkhead to support the clips might be one solution, whilst routing the cables at a reasonable bend radius back to the bulkhead for clipping might be another. The latter is how I've supported the Victron MPPT cables it in own boat.

It might not be poor design, but the cable outlet relying only on the stranded wire clamp does rely on the purchaser providing their own solution. Exactly like mains electrical products many years ago being supplied with a bare mains cable, to which the consumer was expected to fit their own 13A plug. Some will have done a decent job trimming and baring the insulation, securing the clamp and ensuring no stray strands were present between poles. Others may not have produced anything other than a horror waiting to happen. I've seen a few of those.

 

From what I've seen of the OP's other handiwork, he's more than capable of doing the necessary to make his new installation safe, but why should he have needed to? The EPever unit he sold has a very solid and easy to use cable outlet clamp, all at the cost of a slightly longer case, some more plastic mouldings and a few tapped bosses. 

 

I don't have any Victron equipment except their battery charger, a unit which also suffers the same lack of cable clamping. Having a long section of heat shrink tubing protecting the cables against bending as they emerge looks unfinished compared to my lovely EPever MPPT unit.

[Sea Dog]

42 minutes ago, Puffling said:

From what I've seen of the OP's other handiwork, he's more than capable

 

I take your general point about the cable clamps requiring the fitter/purchaser providing their own solution to ensuring the cables are properly, although it's not an insurmountable issue.

On 26/06/2024 at 11:12, blackrose said:

heatsink.

 

Edited

However, the installation here doesn't look highly professional, does it. The OP has provided another photo above where he's later used a patress to clamp the two heavy output cables, but the two lighter input cables and the ground here were much easier to bend gently and clip neatly to the bulkhead yet were also left trailing. Plus, he's mounted the unit further from the bulkhead than Victron's design made provision for as a "just in case" measure which exacerbated the cable securing issue. 

I think we could agree that Victron could have possibly implemented improved cable connections, but to run their products down when, to my engineer's eye

at least, it's more the fitting that leaves something to be desired is a wee bit unfair on them.

Anyway, I don't have shares in Victron, nor do I expect to everyone to meet the highest  professional standards in self installations, not do I wish to give the OP hard times, so I'll leave it at that. 

[Quattrodave]

Personally i always use ferrules and cable tie bases IIRC the victron installation guide advises the use too...

 

But yes it could be designed with better seperation and cable support...

Edited June 28, 2024 by Quattrodave

[blackrose]

On 28/06/2024 at 10:27, Sea Dog said:

I'm sure you did think of it, but you haven't come up with a solution other than blaming Victron for poor design, which is not something I've seen in the Victron products I have fitted.

 

You obviously hadn't seen my post above as I'd already sorted it. 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on whether the Victron design is safe or not. You may not have "seen" the poor design or perhaps you just may not have thought about it or been aware of it. I don't think it's a safe terminal design and if you look at my picture of the Epever terminals in this thread you'll see a much safer design which also has a cover over the terminal screws to reduce the possibility of anyone impulsively putting a screwdriver onto them without first isolating the panels. 

 

19 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

 

I take your general point about the cable clamps requiring the fitter/purchaser providing their own solution to ensuring the cables are properly, although it's not an insurmountable issue.

 

Nobody said it was insurmountable. I said it shouldn't be up to the final consumer to surmount it.

 

19 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

However, the installation here doesn't look highly professional, does it. 

 

It's just as professional as using P-clips below the terminals which you yourself suggested. In fact it's better than p-clips on the bulkhead because the cables aren't bent 2" back to the wall and they are fully supported. I could use p-clips on the hardwood block instead, but it wouldn't make any difference and either way the battery cables are lined up with the terminals rather than being clipped 2" behind them.

 

18 hours ago, Quattrodave said:

But yes it could be designed with better seperation and cable support...

 

Thank you, so it's not just me saying that Victron should have designed this better.

Edited June 29, 2024 by blackrose

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

It's just as professional as using P-clips below the terminals which you yourself suggested.

Just for accuracy I actually said....

On 28/06/2024 at 10:27, Sea Dog said:

By way of suggestion, since it may be helpful, fitting a raised batten to the bulkhead to support the clips might be one solution, whilst routing the cables at a reasonable bend radius back to the bulkhead for clipping might be another.

And I also said...

 

20 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

I think we could agree that Victron could have possibly implemented improved cable connections

And I also said...

20 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

not do I wish to give the OP hard times

Which should have started "nor", not "not"!  I still don't. 

[blackrose]

Ok. Anyway, I've replaced that plastic block with p-clips to make it look more "professional". 

[jonathanA]

Coincidentally I fitted exactly the same unit on a boat today.  First time i've fitted one of these

 

I'm not having a go at blackrose but I thought it was perfectly adequate. The terminals were clamp type as fitted to decent industrial/mains stuff. Plenty of room for the wiring with sufficient depth to ensure that fingers couldn't get near the PV terminals. In the picture below the 6mm from the solar wires had insulated ferrules on and these are well into the unit. Just as well as the 3 series wired panels were pushing out 115v. 

 

I had intended to use  new 16mm to batts but the existing 25mm were OK once properly prepared.

 

The terminals had good sized screws and seemed to me to be entirely up to the job. 

 

This was replacing a epver 45a which was frankly pants. The terminals were big enough to take the 25mm battery wires but had tiny screws made out of chineseium and the previous (diy) installer had managed to mangle them. 

 

(Don't ask me about the spliced pv wiring with taped up joints who needs mc4 connectors.... (3 new 340w panels fitted ) )

Edited July 3, 2024 by jonathanA
Typo

[nicknorman]

I can see BR’s point to some extent. Presumably those shiny cross head screws we can see are connected to the terminals? Even though they are recessed, it would be very easy for someone (eg a child or stupid adult) to poke a screwdriver into it and make contact with the shiny thing at 150 volts dc. Put it another way, if that was a mains connection everyone would be horrified.

Edited July 4, 2024 by nicknorman

[Russ T]

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, Del ate it said:

It's an optional extra, so you have to decide that the voltages being worked with warrant it, which sometimes they won't. I did use one on a friends boat, where the incoming PV voltages were around 160V and the boat regularly had an inquisitive child on board. Yikes! Personally, I think it should be included with all their MPPT controllers with a maximum allowed voltage in the danger zone.

[David Mack]

My Tracer MPPT has a cover over the terminals. It just slides on and to remove it you just have to press the marked area and slide it down. So it's more for cosmetic reasons, and to avoid accidental contact with anything live, but no real deterrent to an inquisitive child.

Edited July 4, 2024 by David Mack

[jonathanA]

4 hours ago, Del ate it said:

yep I'd linked to that on the Victron site earlier in the thread.  

 

4 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

It's an optional extra, so you have to decide that the voltages being worked with warrant it, which sometimes they won't. I did use one on a friends boat, where the incoming PV voltages were around 160V and the boat regularly had an inquisitive child on board. Yikes! Personally, I think it should be included with all their MPPT controllers with a maximum allowed voltage in the danger zone.

as a point of interest how much was it Jen, please if you can remember ?

 

it wouldn't be hard to fit some plastic plugs in the screw holes, like you get on some mains wiring accessories to cover the screws up, which I might do next time. 

 

in my scenario the unit is in the bottom of a high level cup board with the DC isolator above.  no kiddies could reach it and there aren't any on the boat, (the big dog would have eaten them first)* 

 

its easy to think its only 'DC' and because we are all used to 12/24V DC systems on boats under estimate the dangers.... 

 

* - only joking for the humorless