Best oil for BMC 1500?

[BEngo]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

So just to clarify, please, Morris SAE30 monograde is a good example of such an oil? 

 

I need to change the oil on both my Kelvins and it's what I've always used before, but always had some doubts. 

It is what I have  used in the J for 30 years but it is API CC so may contain some detergents.    I have not been able to find anything on the market  with lower levels, though I have not tried calling oil blenders technical departments.

 

I certainly need to take the doors off and have a good scrape out every other oil change, with a diesel wash down thrown in from time to time.

 

N

 

[TNLI]

4 minutes ago, Troyboy said:

This is the first time I have ever read that changing oil and filters too often increases wear and that old filters are more efficient than new ones. I'm no expert but in 1971 British Leyland were recommending oil changes for the 1.5 diesel engine in their vehicles every 3,000 miles - 5,000 km or 3 monthly intervals . Oil filters they recommended changing every 6,000 miles -10,000km or 6 monthly intervals. 

Good to hear they recommended two for one oil changes for the BMC in the old days. How often you change the oil does depend on what is contaminating the oil. More than 2% diesel fuel in a UOA (Used Oil Analysis) is the normal condemnation limit, although you can only smell diesel in the oil at around 5%. 

In a real old block with bad rings and valve guide oil seals, topping up the oil can result in there being no need to change it for a long time. 

 

Oil filter efficiency is constant only for a modern synthetic extended life oil filter, such as the ones made by Mobil 1 and Fram Ultra, although I'm not sure if either company make one to fit a BMC. Synthetic media have random pore dimensions, so will stop tiny or large particles when new or full of crud. They are 99% efficient at 30 microns according to Mobil. BUT the old cardboard element filters had uniform media hole sizes, so they do not work well until some of the holes start to be filled up by particles of mostly Carbon, Silicon and Iron. The remaining smaller holes then trap small particles.

A normal cheap oil filter stops 97% when new, or 99% when almost full. Alas it's not the actual amount trapped that matters, it's the amount that went through, so you need to use the 100 minus the efficiency figures. That is 3% and 1% bypass figures. So 3 times worse when new!

 

One final point, is be careful about air filtration, as Silicon (Ultra find sand) contamination in oil is very bad news. It occurs because of tiny sand particles going straight through the air filter.. So air filters do make a real difference in terms of how good they are at stopping ultra fine particles. 

Not sure if they make synthetic air filters yet, so the old rule of inspecting rather than changing an air filter still applies.

2 minutes ago, BEngo said:

It is what I have  used in the J for 30 years but it is API CC so may contain some detergents.    I have not been able to find anything on the market  with lower levels, though I have not tried calling oil blenders technical departments.

 

I certainly need to take the doors off and have a good scrape out every other oil change, with a diesel wash down thrown in from time to time.

 

N

 

Some of the Classic cars oils available from Castrol and Mobil, (No idea about Shell or Liqui Moly), do not contain detergents. 

[TNLI]

8 minutes ago, BEngo said:

A couple of extra points for those of you with sludge monsters, Millers a good oil company in Blighty make a very similar flush to Liqui Moly, or Castrol Classic. It's for use a idle only, just before the oil is dumped:

Engine-Flush.pdf (millersoils.co.uk (Never use a drive around flush as they can cause real trouble in additional wear terms).

Castrol Classic engine oils:  Castrol Classic XL30 Monograde SAE30 Classic Engine Oil 4.54 Litres /1 Gallon | eBay

If you look up the data sheet, it does say it contains anti wear additives, but I suspect the TBN detergent level is either low or zero. The same Castrol section lists an idle use flush additive. 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Troyboy said:

This is the first time I have ever read that changing oil and filters too often increases wear and that old filters are more efficient than new ones. I'm no expert but in 1971 British Leyland were recommending oil changes for the 1.5 diesel engine in their vehicles every 3,000 miles - 5,000 km or 3 monthly intervals . Oil filters they recommended changing every 6,000 miles -10,000km or 6 monthly intervals. 

 

Yes, but look at the posting history of who is saying it and who felt the need to resurrect a zombie 8-year-old topic.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[Alan de Enfield]

Have you considered Witham Oils ?

 

They do a large range of classis & vintage oils and offer the same formulation as they were supplying in 1921

 

This is their vintage 'tractor' oil :

This formulation has been manufactured by us since 1921 and has been used in numerous vintage tractors over that time. Predating the more modern Super Universal lubricants it is especially for tractors without wet brakes. Using a specially selected additive treatment it avoids harsh detergent and dispersant levels whilst giving excellent protection to both the engine and transmission. Formulated in a 20W/30 viscosity grade which is preferred by these vintage tractors this product will give adequate protection whether ticking over at a show, taking part in a rally run or, as it was designed to do, working the land.

 

Their classic monograde 30 could be the stuff you vintage guys need :

This SAE 30 monograde lubricant has been manufactured by our company since 1921, to the tried and tested formulas of their day. These non-treated products have no detergent/dispersant additive packs and are specifically designed for vehicles that typically require API SA or CA level of performance.

 

More details and grades here :

 

Classic & Vintage Lubricants - Products (withamgroup.co.uk)

 

 

I used them to get 'proper' CC grade for my Lister.

 

Very helpful people - if they do not have any small cans, they will decant from their big drums exactly what you need.

My Lister used 5.5 litres per oil change and they filled me some 5.5 litre cans so it was just a case of use a can full.  I was doing oil changes every 3-4 weeks (100 hours) so always kept a few cans 'in stock' when we were out on our 3 or 4 month Summer cruises.

 

[TNLI]

There is no way of really knowing what is in the oil of a non major brand oil. They do not publish the exact list of contents and the Acea and API folks don't bother to check on new oils, unless they are sold in the USA or recommended by a big car or truck dealer. The only way of knowing what is in an oil from a non major brand company is to send a 200ml sample off to an oil analysis lab, to see what is really in it, and to find out what the experts in the lab think about it.

I would be real careful with the Withamgroup, as I've never heard of them before, and could not find any results in Bobs The Oil Guy forum, which often has records of both UAO and VOA results. 

[TNLI]

8 minutes ago, TNLI said:

There is no way of really knowing what is in the oil of a non major brand oil. They do not publish the exact list of contents and the Acea and API folks don't bother to check on new oils, unless they are sold in the USA or recommended by a big car or truck dealer. The only way of knowing what is in an oil from a non major brand company is to send a 200ml sample off to an oil analysis lab, to see what is really in it, and to find out what the experts in the lab think about it.

I would be real careful with the Withamgroup, as I've never heard of them before, and could not find any results in Bobs The Oil Guy forum, which often has records of both UAO and VOA results. 

One thing I did notice is that the oil I looked at was clasified as an API GL-4, which is a type of gear oil, BUT it also lists API CF which is for off road indirect injection diesels. I've never read of an oil that is certified for both gear and engine use by the API before. It's possible for a marine oil to have dual approvals, but that is a different system not used by many boat owners, or oil companies.

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by TNLI

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, TNLI said:

I would be real careful with the Withamgroup, as I've never heard of them before,

 

 

They are 'big' in Eastern England, they have been blending and selling oils for over 100 years, &, according to their last filed accounts they hold in excess of £2 million worth of stock, so not a small company.

 

Witham Group were most proud to be involved in the origination of the VLS (Verification of Lubricant Specifications). As a new subsidiary of the United Kingdom Lubricant Association (UKLA) the VLS provides a credible and trusted means to verify lubricant specifications. Today this organisation helps improve and monitor the quality of lubricant products in the UK market, tackles false claims and maintains high standards for the end user and the industry as a whole.

Witham Group's Managing Director, Nigel Bottom joined the Board & Supervisory Committee of the VLS in 2010 and is a proud to be a member of this association.

 

Witham Group | A Little Drop of History

Edited September 18, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

They are 'big' in Eastern England, they have been blending and selling oils for over 100 years, &, according to their last filed accounts they hold in excess of £2 million worth of stock, so not a small company.

 

Witham Group were most proud to be involved in the origination of the VLS (Verification of Lubricant Specifications). As a new subsidiary of the United Kingdom Lubricant Association (UKLA) the VLS provides a credible and trusted means to verify lubricant specifications. Today this organisation helps improve and monitor the quality of lubricant products in the UK market, tackles false claims and maintains high standards for the end user and the industry as a whole.

Witham Group's Managing Director, Nigel Bottom joined the Board & Supervisory Committee of the VLS in 2010 and is a proud to be a member of this association.

 

Witham Group | A Little Drop of History

And they have a place in Lowestoft

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And they have a place in Lowestoft

 

Thats very 'andy - there you go - oil supplies on your doorstep.

They also have their main office / sales in Lincoln which is 'andy for me.

[TNLI]

Case Outcomes | Verification of Lubricant Specifications (ukla-vls.org.uk)

 

Umm, so the question is do you trust a company that might be worth 2 million quid and has 2 cases under investigation to make an oil that seems to be sold as both a gear oil and an engine oil, a real first in certfication terms, with producing something as important as an engine oil, when you can buy almost any of the major brands from suppliers like Opie Oils that provide a cheap online service ??

Might as well just go to the nearest supermarket, shut your eyes and buy a bottle of something from their car care center, but what really does surprise me and is defintely an industry first, is that they started VLS with the aim of allowing themselves to certify their own oil, AND just to confuse their customers they are now an agent for Motul, who do make a few fairly good engine oils. No idea why they would sell another companies engine oils, unless they are just trying to steal their labels!

Edited September 18, 2021 by TNLI

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, TNLI said:

Umm, so the question is do you trust a company that might be worth 2 million quid

 

Where have you got that figure from ?

 

A companies 'worth' is normally many 'factors' more than its stock value.

 

You do seem to struggle with a lot of concepts and lack of understanding in your posts - everything from BMC engine mounting 'frames' to valuation of a company.

[Tony Brooks]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Where have you got that figure from ?

 

A companies 'worth' is normally many 'factors' more than its stock value.

 

You do seem to struggle with a lot of concepts and lack of understanding in your posts - everything from BMC engine mounting 'frames' to valuation of a company.

 

I really question his motives. He seems fixated with oil quality and publishes a chart that gave no details of the companies under investigation until you drill down and a search on "Witham" produced nothing. It also seems some complaints boiled down to the suppliers of the additive packs rather than the blender being at fault. Interesting to note that Manoil (has been recommended here) has a case against them. All the cases I looked at seem to be related to the non-compliance with vehicle/engine manufacturers' specifications, not non-compliance with API or SAE specs. Now, if this forum was concerned with the latest vehicle engines or possibly modern ships engines he might have a point but we are not, especially as this topic is related to BMCs where virtually any oil available today would probably suffice for the short term - be it with a reduced oil pressure.

 

He raises a question over an oil being sold as suitable for engines and gearboxes, and implies it is not possible for an oil to do both duties. Has he explained this to PRM for their hydraulic boxes?  Has he explained it to BMC when they recommended engine oil in the A & B seres engine vehicles, how the blazes did Minis/1100/Maxies survive if he is correct?

 

I think he is a danger to newbie members and boaters.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think he is a danger to newbie members and boaters.

 

 

Looking thru his 60 odd posts - I'd agree with you.

[Tracy D'arth]

He is on the YBW forum too, banging on about oil. He knows very little about much else me thinks.

A BMC engine would run OK on chicken soup I reckon.  When you consider taxis, Land Rovers and the way the military treat them they had to be tolerant of less than perfect lubrication.

[Tony Brooks]

28 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

He is on the YBW forum too, banging on about oil. He knows very little about much else me thinks.

A BMC engine would run OK on chicken soup I reckon.  When you consider taxis, Land Rovers and the way the military treat them they had to be tolerant of less than perfect lubrication.

 

I  am not even convinced he has much practical experience of oils hence the stupidity of his recent comment about engine oil not being suitable for gearboxes with no further qualification. Then I would question the validity of his advice to flush the old, no filter engines  at an oil change, again without further qualification. It would have been good advice if he had said as long a sit has been done regularly from new/overhaul, but he did not. I dread to think of the potential consequences of doing a single flush on an old, neglected engine of this type at a new owner's first oil change, or even worse, doing it on a neglected engine that uses a filter. I fear softened but not removed deposits would fall/dissolve off over a short period of time and badly contaminate the new oil.

 

In much of what he says, I see a fair degree of inexperienced internet "knowledge".

[Tracy D'arth]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I  am not even convinced he has much practical experience of oils hence the stupidity of his recent comment about engine oil not being suitable for gearboxes with no further qualification. Then I would question the validity of his advice to flush the old, no filter engines  at an oil change, again without further qualification. It would have been good advice if he had said as long a sit has been done regularly from new/overhaul, but he did not. I dread to think of the potential consequences of doing a single flush on an old, neglected engine of this type at a new owner's first oil change, or even worse, doing it on a neglected engine that uses a filter. I fear softened but not removed deposits would fall/dissolve off over a short period of time and badly contaminate the new oil.

 

In much of what he says, I see a fair degree of inexperienced internet "knowledge".

Diverting slightly,

I had first hand experience of sludge in an engine. It was a Pontiac Bonneville coupe which had done a fair mileage when bought.  Massive V8, a very fast motor.

After a few years use and regular servicing ( at least as regular as big Yank motors need ) the oil warning light suddenly stayed lit when running.  

Engine sounded fine, we continued to use it for a few weeks assuming it was a duff pressure switch.

Got round to replacing the switch to find it was not faulty, a gauge check revealed NO OIL PRESSURE !

Removing the sump pan it was discovered that the pickup gauze of the oil pump was totally blocked with thick sludge. Presumably our regular oil changes with modern detergent oils had loosed sludge from throughout the engine.

It ran perfectly for several years afterward with no obvious ill effects.

Until it started to go slowly but appear to run happily but that was another odd story.

 

[TNLI]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Where have you got that figure from ?

 

A companies 'worth' is normally many 'factors' more than its stock value.

 

You do seem to struggle with a lot of concepts and lack of understanding in your posts - everything from BMC engine mounting 'frames' to valuation of a company.

It's the figure from Companies House for Witham Group Holdings, Witham Group itself was declared dormant for some reason and most assets seem to relate to their paint operation, not oil. 

application-pdf

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, TNLI said:

It's the figure from Companies House for Witham Group Holdings, Witham Group itself was declared dormant for some reason and most assets seem to relate to their paint operation, not oil. 

 

Companies house do not make a habit of giving the 'worth'of a company - what multiplier of EBIT or P/E ratio did you use to arrive at the £2m ?

[TNLI]

7 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Diverting slightly,

I had first hand experience of sludge in an engine. It was a Pontiac Bonneville coupe which had done a fair mileage when bought.  Massive V8, a very fast motor.

After a few years use and regular servicing ( at least as regular as big Yank motors need ) the oil warning light suddenly stayed lit when running.  

Engine sounded fine, we continued to use it for a few weeks assuming it was a duff pressure switch.

Got round to replacing the switch to find it was not faulty, a gauge check revealed NO OIL PRESSURE !

Removing the sump pan it was discovered that the pickup gauze of the oil pump was totally blocked with thick sludge. Presumably our regular oil changes with modern detergent oils had loosed sludge from throughout the engine.

It ran perfectly for several years afterward with no obvious ill effects.

Until it started to go slowly but appear to run happily but that was another odd story.

 

Which exact type of oil were you using and for how long ?? There are a lot of reasons why an engine can build up sludge, the most common is using the oil for too long, second most common is poor compression or bad injector tips causing a big increase in Carbon deposits. If an engine is a known sludge monster, using an idle only flush just before an oil change is a well known method of preventing or treating a build up, although I normally treat minor cases with a change to a high detergent oil and a big reduction in the oil change interval. The detergents are far more active in the first few thousand miles, so even if you are using a really good diesel oil, it makes a big difference if you reduce the OCI in terms of how well the oil cleans the block.

The exact type of base stock effects how well the oil acts as a solvent, so using a full synthetic high detergent oil really cleans an engine up very quickly, BUT if the oil seals are worn, it can result in an increase in the drip rate for a while, as the varnish and sludge helps the seal to function. In a real bad case the oil pump intake screen should be cleaned and the turbo feed pipe either replaced or removed and cleaned out with acetone if an idle flush does not shift the varnish in the feed pipe. Poor oil flow caused by varnish and reduced oil pressure are a major cause of main block or turbo bearings failing. 

Liqui Moly do advise that if you change from using a mineral base stock or low detergent, (cheap), oil, the next oil change interval should be reduced to half of the normal recommended interval. The reason for that is that they make mostly high detergent Synthoils, or HC synthetics. 

[TNLI]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Companies house do not make a habit of giving the 'worth'of a company - what multiplier of EBIT or P/E ratio did you use to arrive at the £2m ?

Why did you not look at the CH web site, as I posted the link. I've picked out the most favourable figure for the total shareholding. What you would actually get for a true NAV is difficult to figure without a full set of accounts, but it will be less than 2 million. 

If you do use their oils, it would be interesting to read a UOA, to see what they are really selling, as small companies often get a new product certified and then icut the additives included in the oil in order to make a profit. 

[Tony Brooks]

26 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Why did you not look at the CH web site, as I posted the link. I've picked out the most favourable figure for the total shareholding. What you would actually get for a true NAV is difficult to figure without a full set of accounts, but it will be less than 2 million. 

If you do use their oils, it would be interesting to read a UOA, to see what they are really selling, as small companies often get a new product certified and then icut the additives included in the oil in order to make a profit. 

 

Because that link produces an error on my computer:

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<Expires>2021-09-19T17:06:59Z</Expires>
<ServerTime>2021-09-19T18:08:22Z</ServerTime>
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[Alan de Enfield]

42 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Why did you not look at the CH web site, as I posted the link. I've picked out the most favourable figure for the total shareholding. What you would actually get for a true NAV is difficult to figure without a full set of accounts, but it will be less than 2 million. 

If you do use their oils, it would be interesting to read a UOA, to see what they are really selling, as small companies often get a new product certified and then icut the additives included in the oil in order to make a profit. 

 

I looked on the CH website long before you posted your 'valuation' - where do you thibk I got their stock valation from ?

 

Shareholding bears absolutely no realtionship to valaution.

 

My own limited company has 2x £1 shares issued, one to myself and one to my Wife - I assume you would therefore vcalu the company at £2.

 

You have no idea, and are posting information which could be expensive / dangerous to those who  don't know what rubbish you are spouting.

 

Close the door on your way out.

[TNLI]

It works fine with Win 10, but all you need do is type in companies house and the name of the company and Google will go almost directly to their accounts. They make very interesting reading, although because it is defined as a small company, their accounts don't say much, like trying to explain what their core business is, as it might be paint. The fact they have effectively closed a whole series of companies by declaring then dormant is disturbing. 

 

For other readers, it's a real good idea to stick to major brand oil companies, like Liqui Moly, Shell, Mobil and Castrol, (In order of my own preference), in the UK for both oil and gearbox fluids, unless the engine manufacturer is selling their own brand, like Beta do for their diesels. The other exception is if you are overseas and obtaining major brand oils is too expensive due to import taxes. Then take a look at that countries biggest oil company to see if they make an oil with the relevant approvals.

 

If you have any complex oil related questions, or are trying to find out if a particular oil is a good one, Bob's The Oil Guy forum is worth asking in, as you can often find out exctly what is in a new oil. They also have a very good series of articles listed that will explain things like why changing an oil too often, or why dirty non synthetic oil filters, or dirty air filters are far better than new ones.

 

There are a few fringe engine oil companies that make some good oils, but there are only 2 that I regards as interesting, and I don't think either makes a real good marine standard oil. One is Millers in the UK and the other is Amsoil in the USA. Both have a bit of a cult following, and Volvo even finished up recommending a 15w40 genuine German standard full synthyetic for use in hot desert options. A 15w40 is thicker at high oil temperatures than a 10w40 and Volvo did recommend that the OCI should be reduced by half in hot area operations due to Silicon contamination issues. For some reason Volvo did not mention in the V40 diesel owners manual that the only company making a real, (Not HC synthetic), German standard 15w40 oil was Amsoil. 

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I looked on the CH website long before you posted your 'valuation' - where do you thibk I got their stock valation from ?

 

Shareholding bears absolutely no realtionship to valaution.

 

My own limited company has 2x £1 shares issued, one to myself and one to my Wife - I assume you would therefore vcalu the company at £2.

 

You have no idea, and are posting information which could be expensive / dangerous to those who  don't know what rubbish you are spouting.

 

Close the door on your way out.

All you looked at was the introduction, not the set of figures that follows. You can register a company with one pound shares, but when the accounts are filed with CH, they might be worth millions! All you have to do is read the full CH using the link I provided.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, TNLI said:

Which exact type of oil were you using and for how long ?? There are a lot of reasons why an engine can build up sludge, the most common is using the oil for too long, second most common is poor compression or bad injector tips causing a big increase in Carbon deposits. If an engine is a known sludge monster, using an idle only flush just before an oil change is a well known method of preventing or treating a build up, although I normally treat minor cases with a change to a high detergent oil and a big reduction in the oil change interval. The detergents are far more active in the first few thousand miles, so even if you are using a really good diesel oil, it makes a big difference if you reduce the OCI in terms of how well the oil cleans the block.

The exact type of base stock effects how well the oil acts as a solvent, so using a full synthetic high detergent oil really cleans an engine up very quickly, BUT if the oil seals are worn, it can result in an increase in the drip rate for a while, as the varnish and sludge helps the seal to function. In a real bad case the oil pump intake screen should be cleaned and the turbo feed pipe either replaced or removed and cleaned out with acetone if an idle flush does not shift the varnish in the feed pipe. Poor oil flow caused by varnish and reduced oil pressure are a major cause of main block or turbo bearings failing. 

Liqui Moly do advise that if you change from using a mineral base stock or low detergent, (cheap), oil, the next oil change interval should be reduced to half of the normal recommended interval. The reason for that is that they make mostly high detergent Synthoils, or HC synthetics. 

The Pontiac Bonneville is a petrol engine.