Boat Safety Certificate

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It was my understanding that the £70 paid for the BSS computers, office space, people working in the office and people coming up with reasons why we need CO detectors in our boat and why we must not use Lithium batteries 

 

The BSS Office address :

 

National Waterways Museum Ellesmere Port, South Pier Road, Ellesmere Port, Cheshire, CH65 4FW

[LadyG]

I must admit that to my miind, CO monitors are essential for those with SF stoves, but again, it's all a bit of fuzzy thinking.

Is one enough  where should it be affixed, should it be affixed, ditto smoke detectors.

[David Mack]

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

Is one enough  where should it be affixed, should it be affixed, ditto smoke detectors.

There should have been guidance on where to fix CO and smoke alarms I the leaflet that came in the box with them. There is also guidance online if you look.

Edited August 2 by David Mack

[LadyG]

11 minutes ago, David Mack said:

There should have been guidance on where to fix CO and smoke alarms I the leaflet that came in the box with them. There is also guidance online if you look.

I m not in doubt myself,  common sense dictates I put my main smoke detector near the cooker, high up, but the other one I have above the solid fuel stove, or the Webasto. I suspect the instructions will refer to houses not boats.

I did have a CO monitor which went off a few times, when i cracked the fire door to light the fire, and I found the problem was that the CO was concentrated about five foot from the floor. I keep my second monitor near my bed, I think that it is more likely to kill someone sleeping and I believe it does tend to have a soporific effect, so if I feel sleepy I open doors and windows.

Edited August 2 by LadyG

[IanD]

51 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It was my understanding that the £70 paid for the BSS computers, office space, people working in the office and people coming up with reasons why we need CO detectors in our boat and why we must not use Lithium batteries 

But is all that part of BSS which is non-profit (which seems likely) or CART -- which @peterboat is suggesting, but seems unlikely?

 

You might hate BSS and think they're a useless waste of space (like many other boaters...), but they are legally required so you have to have them and pay them to do the work.

 

If the £70 goes to BSS not CART, then CART don't get any "benefit" from it.

 

If the £70 goes to CART who use it to pay for the above work (wasted or not), then CART don't get any benefit from it.

 

If the £70 goes to CART who do nothing for it and just pocket it, then they do get a benefit from it.

 

Which is it?

 

 

Edited August 2 by IanD

[David Mack]

12 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I m not in doubt myself,  common sense dictates I put my main smoke detector near the cooker, high up, but the other one I have above the solid fuel stove, or the Webasto. I suspect the instructions will refer to houses not boats.

I did have a CO monitor which went off a few times, when i cracked the fire door to light the fire, and I found the problem was that the CO was concentrated about five foot from the floor. I keep my second monitor near my bed, I think that it is more likely to kill someone sleeping and I believe it does tend to have a soporific effect, so if I feel sleepy I open doors and windows.

Guidance on CO alarms in boats here: https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe-advice/carbon-monoxide-co/

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Is one enough  where should it be affixed, should it be affixed, ditto smoke detectors.

 

The number required and the location information is given in the guidance - generally one is not enough to be compliant. (I needed three)

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I must admit that to my miind, CO monitors are essential for those with SF stoves, but again, it's all a bit of fuzzy thinking.

Is one enough  where should it be affixed, should it be affixed, ditto smoke detectors.

But the BSS isn't to protect you or friend and family on your boat, its to protect third parties 

[Momac]

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But the BSS isn't to protect you or friend and family on your boat, its to protect third parties 

This is correct.

 

If the BSS prevents a casualty on a boat that's just a bonus.

[Bargebuilder]

19 minutes ago, Momac said:

This is correct.

 

If the BSS prevents a casualty on a boat that's just a bonus.

I suppose that the boat owner and their guests are themselves visitors to the inland waterways, so would be included. The question is, has the BSS made a demonstrable difference to the number of accidents?

 

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

But the BSS isn't to protect you or friend and family on your boat, its to protect third parties 

I know, but these third parties must be inside my boat for the CO monitor have any effect.

14 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I suppose that the boat owner and their guests are themselves visitors to the inland waterways, so would be included. The question is, has the BSS made a demonstrable difference to the number of accidents?

 

If it follows the Road Traffic protocols, they are no longer accidents, they are "incidents"

[Bargebuilder]

16 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

If it follows the Road Traffic protocols, they are no longer accidents, they are "incidents"

All accidents are incidents, but not all incidents are accidents.

[MtB]

40 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I suppose that the boat owner and their guests are themselves visitors to the inland waterways, so would be included. The question is, has the BSS made a demonstrable difference to the number of accidents?

 

 

 

Of course not. There were hardly any fatalities caused by canal boats in the first place, and there are still hardly any fatalities. 

[Alan de Enfield]

46 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I know, but these third parties must be inside my boat for the CO monitor have any effect.

 

Did you not look at the BSS justification for the introduction of CO alarms ?

 

It is nothing to do with protecting 'others' in your boat, its all about protecting YOU from other boats.

 

Have a read of it, it's not difficult to undestand their thinking.

[Momac]

9 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

We have a centre cockpit boat, the heater and cooker are in the forward cabin, but we were failed because we had no CO detector in the aft cabin which is separated by two metres of open air!

it seems you have not considered the possibility of a CO source other than your own galley or heater  which could result in CO entering your aft cabin?

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Did you not look at the BSS justification for the introduction of CO alarms ?

 

It is nothing to do with protecting 'others' in your boat, its all about protecting YOU from other boats.

 

Have a read of it, it's not difficult to undestand their thinking.

 

Ah yes, that.

 

Can you cite the statistics please Alan, for boaters dying from CO poisoning, where the CO source was another boat? 

 

Much obliged. 

 

For the avoidance of doubt I agree with making CO monitors mandatory, but this "protecting you from other boats" line sounds like a load of old tosh to me. But I'm willing to be convinced if there are some proper stats indicating the extent of the risk LadyG (or me!) is under from CO issuing from other boats. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

Can you cite the statistics please Alan, for boaters dying from CO poisoning, where the CO source was another boat? 

 

 

Why should I. I made no claims re the value of fitting them - I was simply pointing out to LadyGardener why CO alarms are fitted - she was on the forum when they were introduced and no doubt took an active part in the debate when they were discussed.

 

 

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

For the avoidance of doubt I agree with making CO monitors mandatory, but this "protecting you from other boats" line sounds like a load of old tosh to me.

 

They had to construct a reason as they do not have the powers to enforce the fitting of a CO alarm to protect the boat occupants from their own produced CO - just the same as the Ventilation requirements are not mandatory, and the 230v electrical requirements are virtually all optional, and suicide is not illegal.

Edited August 2 by Alan de Enfield

[Quattrodave]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

and suicide is not illegal.

 

Huh, i always thought it was... although prosecuting would be rather awkward 🤦‍♂️

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Quattrodave said:

 

Huh, i always thought it was... although prosecuting would be rather awkward 🤦‍♂️

 

I've an idea that when I was a kid people DID get prosecuted for attempted suicide. But this was dropped a few decades ago. 

[Bargebuilder]

11 minutes ago, Momac said:

it seems you have not considered the possibility of a CO source other than your own galley or heater  which could result in CO entering your aft cabin?

You are right, I hadn't, probably because the chance of this happening is somewhere between vanishingly small and zero, tending towards the zero end.

 

In common with most people, I'm all for CO detectors where there is actually a risk. Perhaps I should have one in the cockpit!

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Quattrodave said:

 

Huh, i always thought it was... although prosecuting would be rather awkward 🤦‍♂️

 

Nope. and that is why the BSS (or anyone else) cannot stop you self harming by having legislation that you MUST have (say) ventilation on your boat. It is only compulsory where it is a commercial boat and you are endangering other paying customers.

 

The Suicide Act 1961 (9 & 10 Eliz. 2. c. 60) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It decriminalised the act of suicide in England and Wales so that those who survived a suicide attempt would no longer be prosecuted.

[LadyG]

23 minutes ago, Momac said:

it seems you have not considered the possibility of a CO source other than your own galley or heater  which could result in CO entering your aft cabin?

This is true, I often close my doors if someone is running their engine or other generator.

Edited August 2 by LadyG

[Bargebuilder]

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

This is true, I often close my doors if someone is running their engine or other generator.

You may not like the smell, but I would be amazed if there has ever been a case of CO produced from a generator migrating across several metres of the great outdoors and into another boats window and poisoning its occupants. 

[LadyG]

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

You may not like the smell, but I would be amazed if there has ever been a case of CO produced from a generator migrating across several metres of the great outdoors and into another boats window and poisoning its occupants. 

There are other gases which are noxious,  if I can smell something, then there will be pollution.

[ditchcrawler]

44 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Ah yes, that.

 

Can you cite the statistics please Alan, for boaters dying from CO poisoning, where the CO source was another boat? 

 

Much obliged. 

 

For the avoidance of doubt I agree with making CO monitors mandatory, but this "protecting you from other boats" line sounds like a load of old tosh to me. But I'm willing to be convinced if there are some proper stats indicating the extent of the risk LadyG (or me!) is under from CO issuing from other boats. 

 

 

I can think of two cases in marinas where the CO alarm alerted the occupant of CO from an external source which involved the emergency services attending . I also know personally of a case of a boat owner dying from CO in his own boat prior to the requirement of CO detectors, his dog died beside him.