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Baton Twirlers Stage Protest (again)


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7 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

It was, to me, when I moved onto the canal. 2003. Now you know.

 

 

 

So as a newbie then, you hardly know anything yet. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, MtB said:

So as a newbie then, you hardly know anything yet. 

 

I lived by canals, as a boy, when some were nothing more than extensions of the municipal dumps. And probably older than you. I try.

 

 

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21 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

I'm speaking from that date, if it wasn't already clear. 

 

CCing had to be a gained right. What do you think the alternative might have been before? Home mooring requirement. And at the time - paid-for.

 

Remember ghost moorings?

 

 

 

I know it's pointless trying to educate you, but when I started boating there were no BW mooring fees, there were boats that cruised continuously and there were boats with home moorings for which they paid no fees to BW. And no home mooring requirement.

It's been pointless debating with you since you were whinging about licences in marinas. I shan't respond again.

PS ghost moorings were a myth.

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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Just now, Arthur Marshall said:

I know it's pointless trying to educate you, but when I started boating there were no BW mooring fees, there were boats that cruised continuously and there were boats with home moorings for which they paid no fees to BW. And no home mooring requirement.

It's been pointless debating with you since you were whinging about licences in marinas. I shan't respond again.

 

I know what you were saying. Things then changed. 

 

 

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22 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Nope. But the initial drafts of the 1995 Act attempted to make it the case.

Furious lobbying got the concession for CCing added at the last minute, IIRC. But you know this already. I type it out for other readers not necessarily aware.

It never occurred to anyone back then that CMing would become a thing as a result.

 

It did occur to me and Di 😃. We were petitioners against elements of the 1995 Act while it was at the discussion "Bill" stage. Arguments were made against a draft clause that made everyone have a home mooring, and the Lords committee accepted these. They told BW to come up with some alternative to the 'home mooring' clause. Duffy, the BW Solicitor, was so frightened that they might lose the whole Bill that he came up with the 'continuous cruising' idea more or less overnight. We pointed out to him that it didn't have anything to qualify or define 'continuous cruising', and Duffy said they would sort that out later - well, we know where that got him, don't we!  😧

Edited by Tam & Di
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1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I know it's pointless trying to educate you, but when I started boating there were no BW mooring fees, there were boats that cruised continuously and there were boats with home moorings for which they paid no fees to BW. And no home mooring requirement.

It's been pointless debating with you since you were whinging about licences in marinas. I shan't respond again.

PS ghost moorings were a myth.

What Arthur is saying is that 'end of garden' mooring fees did not exist then.  Nor had the new marina percentage fees been introduced.  However, mooring sites leased from BW certainly paid them rent money. 

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6 minutes ago, Lady M said:

What Arthur is saying is that 'end of garden' mooring fees did not exist then.  Nor had the new marina percentage fees been introduced.  However, mooring sites leased from BW certainly paid them rent money. 

 

The term "end of garden" wasn't used. Not in my direction, anyway. I never disputed what he was saying. I have also made it clear, my time starting in 2003. When, I think, nothing that the poster was saying had much relevance.

 

 

 

 

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I don't actually agree with the CC surcharge approach but, as a home moorer, I know I pay a lot more to CRT than any CC-er.  Therefore I am offended by the behaviour of CM-ers, especially when it affects other waterway users.  Having, on holiday, followed a group of 3 CC-ing boats round the Four Counties ring and sometimes found my preferred stopping place full, sometimes I get annoyed by CC-ers too.  On one occasion, they told me they had decided to stay on a 48 hour mooring for a third night because they liked it there.  

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2 hours ago, Lady M said:

I don't actually agree with the CC surcharge approach but, as a home moorer, I know I pay a lot more to CRT than any CC-er.  Therefore I am offended by the behaviour of CM-ers, especially when it affects other waterway users.  Having, on holiday, followed a group of 3 CC-ing boats round the Four Counties ring and sometimes found my preferred stopping place full, sometimes I get annoyed by CC-ers too.  On one occasion, they told me they had decided to stay on a 48 hour mooring for a third night because they liked it there.  

 

There are two fatties which have been hogging the 48hr moorings here for months.

 

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2 hours ago, Lady M said:

I don't actually agree with the CC surcharge approach but, as a home moorer, I know I pay a lot more to CRT than any CC-er.  Therefore I am offended by the behaviour of CM-ers, especially when it affects other waterway users.  Having, on holiday, followed a group of 3 CC-ing boats round the Four Counties ring and sometimes found my preferred stopping place full, sometimes I get annoyed by CC-ers too.  On one occasion, they told me they had decided to stay on a 48 hour mooring for a third night because they liked it there.  

 

As a moorer, you pay exactly what you signed up to pay. Your licence, per boat, is exactly, or would be exactly what a CC'er would pay, for the same size boat. There will be home moorers that will use the canal more than a CC'er that moves every 14 days.  The home moorer's use should be similarly equatable, to be fair. 

 

The concept of pay by use has now been established. If it's valid for one group, it should be valid for others.

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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Just now, Higgs said:

 

As a moorer, you pay exactly what you signed up to pay. Your licence, per boat, is exactly, or would be exactly what a CC'er would pay, for the same size boat. There will be home moorers that will use the canal more than a CC'er that moves every 14 days.  The home moore's use should be similarly equatable, to be fair. 

 

The concept of pay by use has now been established.

 

 

I doubt a home moorer would dispose of 365 days worth of garbage per year into a CRT facility or even 365 days worth of effluent into a CRT facility 

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3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I doubt a home moorer would dispose of 365 days worth of garbage per year into a CRT facility or even 365 days worth of effluent into a CRT facility 

 

We can haggle. Online moorers could be close.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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43 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

As a moorer, you pay exactly what you signed up to pay. Your licence, per boat, is exactly, or would be exactly what a CC'er would pay, for the same size boat. There will be home moorers that will use the canal more than a CC'er that moves every 14 days.  The home moorer's use should be similarly equatable, to be fair. 

 

The concept of pay by use has now been established. If it's valid for one group, it should be valid for others.

 

 

 

Perhaps the unfair aspect of the new charging regime is the requirement to take a home mooring for a minimum of six months to change from CC-er to home moorer - and pay a fee to make each change.  I would prefer it to be based on each full calendar month of paid mooring fees but even a minimum of three consecutive months would be much fairer and reflect what many boaters do in the winter.  The scheme as currently set up discourages CC-ers from taking their boat off the system when they can't or don't wish to travel.

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1 hour ago, Higgs said:

Your licence, per boat, is exactly, or would be exactly what a CC'er would pay,

 

 

Errrr - wrong !

 

Check you facts. 

CCers have to pay a premium / surcharge on their licence that a boat with a home mooring doesn't have to pay.

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46 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Errrr - wrong !

 

Check you facts. 

CCers have to pay a premium / surcharge on their licence that a boat with a home mooring doesn't have to pay.

 

What are you on about? Would be, as in - if there was no surcharge. For clarification.

 

I would argue that home moorers should in time not be excluded from an evaluation, based on use. From no use, as far as private marina moorers are concerned, that never leave the marina, and, those that trawl the canals for months. 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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7 minutes ago, Higgs said:

What are you on about? Would be, as in - if there was no surcharge. For clarification.

 

Silly me.

Of course, if there was no CC surcharge then both licences (for an identical boat) would cost the same.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Silly me.

Of course, if there was no CC surcharge then both licences (for an identical boat) would cost the same.

 

And when did surcharging begin?

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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6 hours ago, Lady M said:

What Arthur is saying is that 'end of garden' mooring fees did not exist then. 

L3 farmers field moorings existed in 1993 that's a definite I had to pay it then.

Edited by GUMPY
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45 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

 

I would argue that home moorers should in time not be excluded from an evaluation, based on use. From no use, as far as private marina moorers are concerned, that never leave the marina, and, those that trawl the canals for months. 

 

 

Are boats in private marinas required to have CRT licences?

 

If so, surely this would have been mentioned before.

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5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Are boats in private marinas required to have CRT licences?

 

If so, surely this would have been mentioned before.

 

Yes, they are required to have a licence. There are some marinas with historic rights, and the boats in those marinas do not need a licence. 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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1 hour ago, Higgs said:

 

I would argue that home moorers should in time not be excluded from an evaluation, based on use. 

 

 

 

They already are - CRT have decided to very broadly classify it into two bands of "use" - which coincides with CCer or home mooring status.

 

CCers use CRT facilities, be that elsan/rubbish disposal much more often as a downstream consequence of living aboard (or spending much more time on the boat, due to the requirements placed on them by having a CC licence) or simply the facility of mooring on the towpath 365 nights of the year. I am sure some home moorers use the facilities more than others, and some of your exceptional friends, not at all. But for now we have the 2 bands.

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1 hour ago, Higgs said:

 

What are you on about? Would be, as in - if there was no surcharge. For clarification.

 

I would argue that home moorers should in time not be excluded from an evaluation, based on use. From no use, as far as private marina moorers are concerned, that never leave the marina, and, those that trawl the canals for months. 

 

 

But we already pay more to CRT indirectly via the lump they take from the marina operator, he doesn't pay it, I do included in what I give him every year. In fact I am paying CRT  to take my boat off the canal.

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11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But we already pay more to CRT indirectly via the lump they take from the marina operator, he doesn't pay it, I do included in what I give him every year. In fact I am paying CRT  to take my boat off the canal.

 

I have to say - so what. That's the agreement moorers entered into. 9% access fee. It goes with the territory. 

 

I've been a lone voice on here railing against the dodgy dealings, as I see it, in private marinas. And no one gives a flying F. So, I'm not going to be sticking up for anyone, now they don't like a charge. 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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