"Medium" length stern button

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I don’t think they look hideous as it happens. 
Very practical. 
Could they be given a two way hinge? 
 

[Captain Pegg]

12 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I don’t think they look hideous as it happens. 
Very practical. 
Could they be given a two way hinge? 
 

A key advantage is that they retain their shape. The problem with single large buttons is that they can get squished into undesirable shapes even if they remain correctly seated. Possibly that means they should be replaced but many folk are evidently happy to boat with crap fenders.

 

I’ve been observing fenders very closely the past couple of days but I already know from the boats I move how many have inadequate or even non-existent fenders.

Edited September 19 by Captain Pegg

[magnetman]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

 but there's no way they can move *down* so if you catch them under something when going up in a lock you could be in real trouble, there's no way they'll give way...

I always assumed these were made with the hinge pin being something soft and designed to shear. Never looked closely and probably wrong but its a basic design you would want otherwise it could sink the boat. 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

How about them circular fenders?

The ones usually set either side of the stern fender. 
They look kind of pretty and I guess are a modern addition. 
 

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I don’t totally buy the theory about high fenders being about laden boats. Working boats ride the gates up and down. The fender set up has a lot to do with towing but also the fact that as has been explained tipcats enable the fenders to be broken and when locking through narrow locks with a full length historic that’s a common requirement so the fenders have to be in a position where it’s practical to lift.

 

I’ve also got a picture that demonstrates that the trim of an empty carrying boat versus a loaded one is such that the counter does not disappear beneath the water to any great extent. Unfortunately it’s too big and I’m not in a position to resize it at present.

 

I have lots of photos of the back end of working boats. The odd one might amuse you but the majority don’t bear out what you say.

 

 

Plenty of photos of working boats show that fully loaded they're trimmed close to level with perhaps 8" of freeboard, here's one example. Can't see how unloaded the stern can be at the same level, the bows will come up a lot (up to 3' for a Big Woolwich?) but the stern will come up as well (maybe half that amount?).

 

I understand why the fenders are where they are on a working boat (just below deck level), but don't see why they should be that way on a modern leisure boat.

[Rob-M]

Just now, Goliath said:

How about them circular fenders?

The ones usually set either side of the stern fender. 
They look kind of pretty and I guess are a modern addition. 
 

Used to protect the counter when your butty runs up the back end and crashes in to the side.  If you look at a lot of old working boats there are many with dents in the sides of the stern from butty strikes.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I always assumed these were made with the hinge pin being something soft and designed to shear. Never looked closely and probably wrong but its a basic design you would want otherwise it could sink the boat. 

 

 

I looked at the ones I hired and that's not how they seemed to be constructed, the pivot pin just looked like a length of 1" steel bar. I thought it wasn't safe when going up, but wondered if the main concern was hanging up going down because that's a lot more common...

[Rob-M]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Plenty of photos of working boats show that fully loaded they're trimmed close to level with perhaps 8" of freeboard, here's one example. Can't see how unloaded the stern can be at the same level, the bows will come up a lot (up to 3' for a Big Woolwich?) but the stern will come up as well (maybe half that amount?).

 

I understand why the fenders are where they are on a working boat (just below deck level), but don't see why they should be that way on a modern leisure boat.

I often step on my stern fenders when I've reversed in to a mooring as it can be easier for getting on\off the boat so for me having them set at the top of the counter is useful.  Also, I've got them high enough to not run on the pontoon when on my home mooring as it was wearing the button through but as I only have one tipcat the button doesn't balance nicely on it so I can't leave it left up.

 

[magnetman]

Yes getting caught going downhill probably is a bigger risk overall but I'd definitely want that to break orf in the event of it being loaded up by the boat going too low in the water. 

 

Maybe it was a steel tube with a brass rod inside. Probably not. 

[Captain Pegg]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Plenty of photos of working boats show that fully loaded they're trimmed close to level with perhaps 8" of freeboard, here's one example. Can't see how unloaded the stern can be at the same level, the bows will come up a lot (up to 3' for a Big Woolwich?) but the stern will come up as well (maybe half that amount?).

 

I understand why the fenders are where they are on a working boat (just below deck level), but don't see why they should be that way on a modern leisure boat.

I don’t disagree. I do know though that @Stroudwater1 has a boat with an old school trad set up which did influence my response.

 

If you own a historic you’re likely going to want to set it up to look like what it is, and it’s really not as impractical as you might think. Not least because there many factors to account for when working such craft that aren’t a major consideration with a leisure boat.

 

 

[IanD]

Just now, Captain Pegg said:

I don’t disagree. I do know though that @Stroudwater1 has a boat with an old school trad set up which did influence my response.

 

If you own a historic you’re likely going to want to set it up to look like what it is, and it’s really not as impractical as you might think. Not least because there many factors to account for when working such craft that aren’t a major consideration with a leisure boat.

 

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't be that way on a trad/working boat, because fairly obviously the owners of such boats want them to look -- well, traditional... 😉

 

But on a modern boat which is never loaded, it doesn't seem sensible to have the fender so high above water level -- if only because it's much less good at protecting the rudder from cills, as mentioned above. It's a skiamorph... 😉

[Captain Pegg]

I brought it on myself. I should have known better.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

LOL. It’s also giving a bit of protection against low wharfs/quay side moorings when reversing in, especially if the water level is high, that maybe high Cant fenders could ride over, the disadvantage as mentioned, is that they could go under pontoons, it’s like everything there’s pluses & minuses and things you have to take into consideration in various situations.

Edited September 19 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[M_JG]

1 hour ago, Goliath said:

Most hire boats seem to have a bit of rubber on the end of some boxed steel which reaches past the rudder. 
Seems a good idea?

 

They do but aesthetically they are 'orrible things. They cater more for the risks from those that do not handle a boat very often. 

 

They look to me as if they actually encourage the skipper not to take much care because they will take a fair bit of abuse.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

 

It is interesting because a butty will have no fenders on the stern. 
 

(or does it?)

 

so as has been said the real purpose of stern fenders is protection from the butty. 

?🤷‍♀️?

 

and if we’re not gonna tow a butty then stern fenders are really just for prettification. 
🤷‍♂️
 

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Goliath said:

 

It is interesting because a butty will have no fenders on the stern.

(or does it?)

so as has been said the real purpose of stern fenders is protection from the butty.

and if we’re not gonna tow a butty then stern fenders are really just for prettification. 
 

 

Probably true for a full length boat, especially in the hands of a crew who know what they're doing.

 

Less true for a modern/hire boat 20' shorter than the lock with an inexperienced steerer, with plenty of distance to build up a good speed backwards in a filling lock before ramming the stern into the bottom gates.

 

Beware of assuming that what applies in one circumstance (e.g. yours) applies in a different one... 😉

Edited September 19 by IanD

[magnetman]

Butties did have little fenders on the back of the rudder blade but it seems this may have been decorative rather than actually necessary or functional..

 

 

 

 

[Ray T]

33 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Used to protect the counter when your butty runs up the back end and crashes in to the side.  If you look at a lot of old working boats there are many with dents in the sides of the stern from butty strikes.

 

Best photo I could find to illustrate why a butty may strike a motors stern.

[Captain Pegg]

The principal risk with a motor’s rudder is getting it trapped between the gates of a rising lock. As my fellow moorer Allen found out to his ultimate cost in 2017.

 

That’s a much less likely scenario with a butty or horse boat because because the gates wouldn’t close to anything like fully with the rudder between them.

 

And anyway the rudder on a butty would normally be tied off to the side in a lock.
 

Edited September 19 by Captain Pegg

[magnetman]

6 minutes ago, Ray T said:

 

Best photo I could find to illustrate why a butty may strike a motors stern.

Dennis Cooper? I like the tread plate deck. 

Edited September 19 by magnetman
typo

[Ray T]

6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Butties did have little fenders on the back of the rudder blade but it seems this may have been decorative rather than actually necessary or functional..

 

 

 

 

 

[Captain Pegg]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Butties did have little fenders on the back of the rudder blade but it seems this may have been decorative rather than actually necessary or functional..

 

 

 

 

Definitely functional although not essential. The ropework protects exposed paintwork and/or woodwork.

 

[Rob-M]

When you aren't towing the butty on cross straps there can be quite a bit of momentum in the butty when you stop the motor and the butty steerer either runs it up the bank or crashes in to the back of the motor.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

4 minutes ago, Ray T said:

 

wow! 
That’s a  big fender on the motor there

Just now, Goliath said:

wow! 
That’s a  big fender on the motor there

 I can’t quite tell,

Is it all one ?

or is there a tip on it?

[magnetman]

3 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Definitely functional although not essential. The ropework protects exposed paintwork and/or woodwork.

 

I think there would be an iron band around the back of the rudder where the fender is. 

 

Maybe the fender has enough give to protect the mounting hardware and reduce damage in that area.