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Boat Surveys


Chevetter

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Hi Chevetter (1256 or HS ??!!)

 

If the boat is SW Brum, you've got a reasonable few options depending how flexible the vendor is on moving it for examination. I'd think about dry dock rather than crane -- you only need a half day and it's much less potential grief. If it's moored pretty adjacent to a boatyard, might be worth having a natter to the staff in the yard. Some boats have got pretty well known histories and you might drop lucky.

 

Mike.

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Hi Chevetter (1256 or HS ??!!)

 

If the boat is SW Brum, you've got a reasonable few options depending how flexible the vendor is on moving it for examination. I'd think about dry dock rather than crane -- you only need a half day and it's much less potential grief. If it's moored pretty adjacent to a boatyard, might be worth having a natter to the staff in the yard. Some boats have got pretty well known histories and you might drop lucky.

 

Mike.

 

 

1256 (don't I buy things from you on eBay? - if so small world)

 

I think I'd need more than half a day if I want to re-black and re-anode it. Does anyone know of a decent boatyard in the area?

 

Thanks for all the replies by the way everyone :wub:

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Anyway the surveyor said he could not get ultrasound readings as the tar was stuck solid onto the hull, he got some from the inside that measured around 4mm (don't know if the tar would affect the reeding) but on the report they always have a get out clause saying to the best of their ability and could not get to certain areas etc so my partner is none the wiser now and £300 down.

All the surveyors I've seen working use an angle grinder to take the blacking off before they take ultrasound readings, so it's always a good idea to have an old can of blacking handy to go over those areas before the boat goes back in the water.

 

I had a survey done once, was told boat was ok, then when I was scraping rust from around the bow, suddenly I could see daylight through it and it was below the water line! Another one done by another surveyor was given the ok and a few weeks later it sank! there is no comeback (I don't think) because of their get out clause, which makes me wonder if its worth getting one done at all.

You certainly don't seem to have had much luck with surveyors. No it's not worth having a survey done if it's done by a bad surveyor. They all have limits to their liability, but whatever "get out clauses" are written into their contracts they still have a statutory level of liability under the law. You say you think there is no comeback and I would agree that it's not easy to get involved with that sort of litigation, but it is possible.

 

 

Giving the hull a good bash with a hammer all over will give you a good idea when you get to notice the difference of tones, ie thick and thin steel, where bearers are etc..

Well if I were the vendor of a boat I definately wouldn't let an unqualified and uninsured buyer bash my boat with a hammer, and I don't think many would!

Edited by blackrose
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Just remember if your surveyor grinds a hole in a very thin boat it is you who is responsible for the damage anyway. /crackedrecord/

 

They just grind the blacking off. They're actually much more likely to go through a very thin hull with a hammer blow

 

From a legal perspective it's true that you are liable for any damage caused by your surveyor, but surely any reputable surveyor whould have insurance for such eventualities? Also, if a qualified surveyor causes damage to an unsound hull I would imagine that you would have a couple more legal legs to stand on in court than were you to have caused this damage yourself, without a surveyor present.

Edited by blackrose
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They just grind the blacking off. They're actually much more likely to go through a very thin hull with a hammer blow

 

From a legal perspective it's true that you are liable for any damage caused by your surveyor, but surely any reputable surveyor whould have insurance for such eventualities? Also, if a qualified surveyor causes damage to an unsound hull I would imagine that you would have a couple more legal legs to stand on in court than were you to have caused this damage yourself, without a surveyor present.

 

A surveyor should have professional indemnity insurance, but that's to cover themselves against claims of negligence. In order for the client to be reimbursed by the surveyor or their insurers, the client would have to prove that the surveyor has been negligent. If (as in the situation we're discussing) a surveyor causes damage during the normal course of their work, then the client is liable for the cost of repair (including any extra time in dry dock or on land) and there's no comeback against the surveyor, as they've done nothing other than carry out their client's instructions to the best of their ability.

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Well I think I'm going to need a survey for the insurance anyway as the boat is from the 70s, so I guess there's no option but to haul her out.

 

I was thinking of offering a deal to the owner: I pay for the boat to be pulled out and surveyed. If I'm still agreeable to buying the boat after the survey then the cost gets knocked off the purchase price. Conversely, if I decide to walk away then I still foot the bill and he gets a free survey. If the survey is ok then obviously I'll want to black and re-anode the boat while she's out.

 

Does anyone see any problems with this? Would you agree to it if it were your boat?

@ Blackrose - you said "However you must be aware that an old survey doesn't legally transfer to a new purchaser." Does this still apply if I pay for the survey myself, despite not being the owner?

 

I couldn't avoid a survey either - you can't get a marine mortgage without one - because they want a surveyors valuation, amongst other things.

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If (as in the situation we're discussing) a surveyor causes damage during the normal course of their work, then the client is liable for the cost of repair (including any extra time in dry dock or on land) and there's no comeback against the surveyor, as they've done nothing other than carry out their client's instructions to the best of their ability.

I didn't know that, but of course any claim by a vendor for damages could still be disputed by the buyer, in which case all of this assumes that the matter gets to court in the first place .

 

Between all the contributors on this thread it sounds like we've commissioned quite a few boat surveys. Has anyone actually been in a position where their surveyor has damaged a vendors boat and you have had to pay out? It must happen, but only on a tiny proportion of surveys and I really don't think it's a viable argument for not commissioning a survey on a second hand boat.

Edited by blackrose
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Has anyone actually been in a position where their surveyor has damaged a vendors boat

A surveyor I know was tippy tapping a springer (called guillame or something similar) with his tippy tappy hammer, when his knee went through the bottoms of the boat) fortunately it was a snatch-back at Nell Bridge, so nobody really worried, and I believe, the boat was cut up.

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I didn't know that, but of course any claim by a vendor for damages could still be disputed by the buyer, in which case of this assumes that the matter gets to court in the first place .

 

Between all the contributors on this thread it sounds like we've commissioned quite a few boat surveys. Has anyone actually been in a position where their surveyor has damaged a vendors boat and you have had to pay out? It must happen, but only on a tiny proportion of surveys and I really don't think it's a viable argument for not commissioning a survey on a second hand boat.

 

Hi,

 

As a surveyor a quite regularly break things on boats, but if I can break them with a small hammer or with my own mighty strength what chance would they have in a collision or grounding. The owners of the boat are usually happy that the weakness has been found when the boat isnt in the water. Surveyors using the correct equipment shouldnt have to grind anything off to take ultrasonic readings as technology allows the paint system to be ignored when taking readings.

 

Mike

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I was present a couple of weeks ago at the carrying out of a hull survey, the guy told me that to get accurate readings it is essential to remove all rust, paint and anything else that was on the surface of the steel at the test points.

 

Certainly the 'serious' surveyors who come to my dock will always do this. My own ultrasonic gear will only work on cleaned metal, but it's fairly old now & I understand there may be some which is more forgiving.

 

Tim

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I was present a couple of weeks ago at the carrying out of a hull survey, the guy told me that to get accurate readings it is essential to remove all rust, paint and anything else that was on the surface of the steel at the test points.

 

Hi,

 

Depend wether you spend £500 or £2000 on an ultrasound meter, I have a Cygnus 4 by Cygnus instruments, it uses multiple pulse echo that ignore some scale and the paint system. Means I can do alot more readings to give a more thorough survey and its quicker for me to do. Have a look at Cygnus instrument website.

 

Mike

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Certainly the 'serious' surveyors who come to my dock will always do this. My own ultrasonic gear will only work on cleaned metal, but it's fairly old now & I understand there may be some which is more forgiving.Tim
Yes, I also thought the paint had to be removed at the test points. The surveyors I've seen then used KY jelly to ensure good contact between the equipment and the hull.
Hi,Depend wether you spend £500 or £2000 on an ultrasound meter, I have a Cygnus 4 by Cygnus instruments, it uses multiple pulse echo that ignore some scale and the paint system. Means I can do alot more readings to give a more thorough survey and its quicker for me to do. Have a look at Cygnus instrument website.Mike
That's interesting. The technology has obviously moved on.
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That's interesting. The technology has obviously moved on.

 

It certainly has. I had a conversation with a gentleman in the US recently concerning ultrasonic testing of FRP hulls (specifically finding small voids in very expensive yachts/motor cruisers made from carbon fibre and epoxy). His background was in aircraft engineering and he was somewhat surprised at how low-tech most boat surveying was. Apparently the technology exists to do some quite extensive testing of materials using ultrasound (and apparently thermal imaging in some cases), it just hasn't come down in price enough yet to gain widespread acceptance in the small craft surveying sector.

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We have just had a survey done on our first (possible) boat. My one piece of advice is BE THERE. I have hired boats on the cut for 25 years but I learned more about owning one from being at the survey in all that time. If you have never owned a boat you learn about all the 'little places' you have to keep an eye on, the finer points of the BSS etc.

 

P

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We have just had a survey done on our first (possible) boat. My one piece of advice is BE THERE. I have hired boats on the cut for 25 years but I learned more about owning one from being at the survey in all that time. If you have never owned a boat you learn about all the 'little places' you have to keep an eye on, the finer points of the BSS etc.

 

P

 

Yes, definately.

 

For the same reason, anyone who ever has somone work on their boat should try to be there too. You learn something that you perhaps could do yourself next time and you also make sure they've done the work they charged you for.

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All the surveyors I've seen working use an angle grinder to take the blacking off before they take ultrasound readings,

Well if I were the vendor of a boat I definately wouldn't let an unqualified and uninsured buyer bash my boat with a hammer, and I don't think many would!

He used an angle grinder but the blacking just would not come off, aparantly tthe stuff they used to use in Holland was very good, The stuff I used last time was comming off in a weeks worth of travelling, his is still on solid after 7 years

 

Regarding the hull bashing, I was on about if it's your own boat.

Years ago a friend of mine was after buying a boat, I always advised people then to get a survey done, When we went and looked at the boat, in the water, it looked in such a good condition and the price was really good to, I advised her not to bother with the cost of surveyor, and years later its still looking really good, mind you colecraft are good builders.

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He used an angle grinder but the blacking just would not come off, aparantly tthe stuff they used to use in Holland was very good, The stuff I used last time was comming off in a weeks worth of travelling, his is still on solid after 7 years

I'm very interested. Can you find out what is was? :rolleyes:

 

Regarding the hull bashing, I was on about if it's your own boat.

I can't see much point in bashing your own boat with a hammer?

 

Years ago a friend of mine was after buying a boat, I always advised people then to get a survey done, When we went and looked at the boat, in the water, it looked in such a good condition and the price was really good to, I advised her not to bother with the cost of surveyor, and years later its still looking really good, mind you colecraft are good builders.

When looking at nice boats I too have been tempted to give people the same advice and save their money, but unfortunately you never know what's lurking under the waterline. Some people have saved the price of the survey and got away with it - others have ended up losing thousands. Even a well built and good-looking boat which has been nicely painted may be sitting on a wafer-thin hull or may be badly pitted in places. You just don't know until you get it out the water.

Edited by blackrose
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The surveyor's client would be liable for any damage caused by the surveyor during the course of a survey.

 

 

Just remember if your surveyor grinds a hole in a very thin boat it is you who is responsible for the damage anyway. /crackedrecord/

 

 

They just grind the blacking off. They're actually much more likely to go through a very thin hull with a hammer blow

 

From a legal perspective it's true that you are liable for any damage caused by your surveyor, but surely any reputable surveyor whould have insurance for such eventualities? Also, if a qualified surveyor causes damage to an unsound hull I would imagine that you would have a couple more legal legs to stand on in court than were you to have caused this damage yourself, without a surveyor present.

The surveyor would be liable if negligent, not to the boat owner, but to his client. (client liable to the boatowner). If a surveyor holes a 'sound' hull, he is most likley to be negligent. If the hull is weak the surveyor has mearly revealed a weakness in a more 'dramatic' fashion and is unlikely to be found "negligent". Should it come to it, a court would probably find that the owner should be grateful that the defect was found and that neither the surveyor or his client liable. The Surveyor will of course have indmnety insurance against claims of negligence. See Teadaemon below

 

A surveyor should have professional indemnity insurance, but that's to cover themselves against claims of negligence. In order for the client to be reimbursed by the surveyor or their insurers, the client would have to prove that the surveyor has been negligent. If (as in the situation we're discussing) a surveyor causes damage during the normal course of their work, then the client is liable for the cost of repair (including any extra time in dry dock or on land) and there's no comeback against the surveyor, as they've done nothing other than carry out their client's instructions to the best of their ability.

 

 

Hi,

 

Depend wether you spend £500 or £2000 on an ultrasound meter, I have a Cygnus 4 by Cygnus instruments, it uses multiple pulse echo that ignore some scale and the paint system. Means I can do alot more readings to give a more thorough survey and its quicker for me to do. Have a look at Cygnus instrument website.

 

Mike

 

 

It certainly has. I had a conversation with a gentleman in the US recently concerning ultrasonic testing of FRP hulls (specifically finding small voids in very expensive yachts/motor cruisers made from carbon fibre and epoxy). His background was in aircraft engineering and he was somewhat surprised at how low-tech most boat surveying was. Apparently the technology exists to do some quite extensive testing of materials using ultrasound (and apparently thermal imaging in some cases), it just hasn't come down in price enough yet to gain widespread acceptance in the small craft surveying sector.

 

Trouble is that such equipment, and Indmnity insurance is very expensive, and is the main reason why I do not do any surveying myself. Although recently aquiring a Lloyds academy diploma in small craft surveying, with the intention of taking on just a couple of jobs a month for 'pin money' to supplement my pension, such expense deems this to be inpracticable.

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Trouble is that such equipment, and Indmnity insurance is very expensive, and is the main reason why I do not do any surveying myself. Although recently aquiring a Lloyds academy diploma in small craft surveying, with the intention of taking on just a couple of jobs a month for 'pin money' to supplement my pension, such expense deems this to be inpracticable.

 

I agree with you on the costs - I'm currently studying the IIMS Diploma in Yacht & Small Craft Surveying and have been preparing the beginnings of a business plan, which has been a bit of an eye-opener. I did find that it's possible to hire things like ultrasonic thickness testers (which I may well do initially as most of my potential client-base have GRP or wooden hulls, not steel), but insurance is looking likely to be one of my largest expenses, and a significant impediment to starting up in business (but hopefully not an insurmountable one).

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  • 3 weeks later...
Hey everyone,

 

I've just registered as I'm looking at buying my first boat - for use as a liveaboard!

 

Because I'm not a rich man I can only afford old boats and I'm becoming increasing concerned the more I read about the condition that the old hulls are in.

 

There is one boat in particular which I am seriously thinking of buying. Before I commit, however, I'd like to get a survey done. I was wondering how much this costs and how exactly you go about it. Presumably the buyer pays? I'd guess I'd have to factor in the cost of craning the boat out of the water or a dry dock? Is there any kind of standard practice in these situations?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Ask around first about the reliability of the surveyor - I had a survey done in August and paid up the £400 immediately as per the contract I signed. After many repeated phone calls, emails, letters and threats of legal action, I finally got the survey report last week - 4 months after it had been done. And now I find the fuel tank is leaking and has been for several years according to someone who I've found that has worked on the boat before - something I would have thought the survey would have picked up.

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We have purchased a boat that had a yearly MCA Hull inspection as it was licensed to carry 12+ passengers. I spoke to bods at the MCA who told me that the Hull survey they do is "very thorough" - as the last one was done in August 06, we purchased the boat without getting our own survey. It is something i plan to get done next summer for peace of mind, but i'm confident in the paperwork that came with the boat.

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Ask around first about the reliability of the surveyor - I had a survey done in August and paid up the £400 immediately as per the contract I signed. After many repeated phone calls, emails, letters and threats of legal action, I finally got the survey report last week - 4 months after it had been done. And now I find the fuel tank is leaking and has been for several years according to someone who I've found that has worked on the boat before - something I would have thought the survey would have picked up.
Although a surveyor can't reasonably be expected to pick up every potential or existing problem, the fact that you had so much hassle obtaining the report would lead one to conclude that your surveyor wasn't very good and shouldn't be recommended.
We have purchased a boat that had a yearly MCA Hull inspection as it was licensed to carry 12+ passengers. I spoke to bods at the MCA who told me that the Hull survey they do is "very thorough" - as the last one was done in August 06, we purchased the boat without getting our own survey. It is something i plan to get done next summer for peace of mind, but i'm confident in the paperwork that came with the boat.
That sounds ok, and in this particular case I might also have bought on the same basis. However, a previous survey should only really be used as a guide to establish whether it's worth commissioning your own survey on a boat you're interested in. I once met a bloke on a barge at Penton Hook marina in Surrey. He'd bought the boat after looking at the previous owners survey. He later found out that the hull thickness figures on the survey had been doctored and he ended up spending a fortune on it. There was absolutely nothing he could do about it of course, because the liability of a previous survey does not extend to any subsequent owner and I also imagine that any claim of fraud would be dismissed because the survey was a document belonging to the previous owner, which the buyer had no right to view in the first place. Edited by blackrose
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