Butty

[magpie patrick]

4 hours ago, Morris said:

Presumably 'butt' (byt?) as a term of endearment in Wales is derived from this? I suppose the next question is: if two men were working down a mine were they bytis or was only one the byti of the other?

In modern day parlance one bloke would refer to the other as "butt/byt", it works either way, but it is always the other guy who's your byti, never you being the other guys byti. 

[Pluto]

3 hours ago, David Mack said:

From the jam butty mines at Knotty Ash.

On the L&LC, unpowered boats were called 'dummies' after diesel power was introduced.

[archie57]

5 hours ago, Tam & Di said:

 

In my experience boatmen running a pair simply used the word 'boat' if they meant the one with the motor, and 'butty' for the unpowered one.

 

Tam

My late friend Hannah Boyes, who was boating 1896 - 1953 on the Grand Junction and connected canals, always talked of a pair as being a Motor  and boat........!

[Derek R.]

Well, it's brought the jokers out I suppose.

[howardang]

12 hours ago, Pluto said:

On the L&LC, unpowered boats were called 'dummies' after diesel power was introduced.

FWIW Unpowered barges in a port scenario loading or unloading ships have very often been called Dumb 

Barges.

 

Howard

[Ogwr]

Tim Wilkinson in Hold on a minute refers to buttying up with another pair going to Wellingborough,  explained to him as teaming up for the  journey. Butt and Botty are still  very much in South Wales. 

[Tam & Di]

26 minutes ago, howardang said:

FWIW Unpowered barges in a port scenario loading or unloading ships have very often been called Dumb Barges.

 Certainly the case on the Thames, where they are Dumb Barges or Lighters (originally vessels that emptied/lightened a ship off-shore).

 

Tam

[Morris]

 

If anyone is interested, this is the page that sparked this lively debate! (taken from canal arts and crafts by Avril Lansdell)

[Pluto]

30 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 Certainly the case on the Thames, where they are Dumb Barges or Lighters (originally vessels that emptied/lightened a ship off-shore).

 

Tam

Barges working into docks were usually called dumb barges, while on the L&LC they were known simply as dummies. In Lancashire, boatmen often disliked being associated with barges as they considered the bargeman's work less skilled than theirs. However, in Yorkshire the term barge was used as it was associated with the highly skilled sailing keel and sloop men, who continued their trade into the mid-20th century. On the Mersey, sailing flats had virtually disappeared by the start of the 20th century, the dredging of the Mersey Bar for deep-drafted ocean-going ships had speeded up the tidal flow in the narrows around Pier Head, making it extremely difficult for 'slow' sailing flats to access Liverpool and Birkenhead docks. Schooners and ketches continued, but they tended to work to the ports in the Upper Mersey. I can certainly remember De Wadden, about to be 'deconstructed' by the Merseyside Maritime Museum, working into Garston docks on the Irish coal traffic in the 1960s.

[magpie patrick]

As an aside - the bylaws of the Somersetshire Coal Canal Company forbade pulling two boats with one horse, and also forbade the use of two horses. There may have been loopholes but the intent was clear - one animal per boat, one boat per animal. No butty boats on the Coal Canal!

 

That said, there is a picture of a horse pulling two boats somewhere near Midford, but I think it was taken after the canal had officially closed

[Morris]

4 minutes ago, Pluto said:

However, in Yorkshire the term barge was used as it was associated with the highly skilled sailing keel and sloop men, who continued their trade into the mid-20th century. 

 

If anyone is interested in the subject, I highly recommend 'A Life on the Humber - Keeling to Shipbuilding' by Harry Fletcher.

[magnetman]

If Monkey boats were named after someone called Mr Monk could Butty boats be named after someone called Mr Butt? 

 

 

 

 

[Heartland]

Mr Monk was not just somebody but a Tipton Boat Builder

 

 

 

[Ray T]

I cannot remember who, but a Victorian commentator referred to canal boat children "Climbing all over the boats like little monkeys."

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Ray T

[Tam & Di]

1 hour ago, Heartland said:

Mr Monk was not just somebody but a Tipton Boat Builder

 

I can just imagine the howls from the safety inspection bods at the thought of some two dozen or more people standing for 2 hours on the top of a narrowboat, moving or not, plus God knows how many there were crammed inside as well.

 

Tam

[Richard Carter]

2 hours ago, Heartland said:

Mr Monk was not just somebody but a Tipton Boat Builder

 

 

 

 

How is this being towed? 'Cos whatever it is, it's going fast enough for those flags to really fly.

 

Also, handy to have Bollards to tie up to in Oldbury ...

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

36 minutes ago, Richard Carter said:

 

How is this being towed? 'Cos whatever it is, it's going fast enough for those flags to really fly.

 

Also, handy to have Bollards to tie up to in Oldbury ...

 

Two hours from Tipton to Brum on the Old line would be flying.

Wow. 
 

I see they put the tiny people on top

[Heartland]

Well the artist was perhaps a little enthusiastic. This packet boat followed the Old Main Line in those times which was somewhat circuitous, much like the Oxford, but then the engineer responsible for both lengthy deviations was Samuel Simcox (as resident engineer for the BCN, and engineer for the Oxford).

 

On the subject of boat types, there were mention of frigate boats on the BCN, what does the collective forum know about these craft?

 

 

[David Mack]

45 minutes ago, Heartland said:

the Old Main Line in those times which was somewhat circuitous, much like the Oxford, but then the engineer responsible for both lengthy deviations was Samuel Simcox

And apparently some wag at the time said that in choosing the line of both canals, Simcock was trying to immortalise his initials!