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Awful incident a Autherley Junction today.


churchward

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I read the original, unredacted post by Lloyd Chandler with particular note.

 

The point of threads like this is that when something goes wrong it is useful to understand what happened and why, not just superficially but over several levels because it can both help educate those who are unaware and identify particular features which may every now and again throw up something new. I for example always stand clear of the tiller arc, but am sometimes guilty of being lazy about leaving the stern rope on the dolly. Threads like this remind me not to be.

 

The specifics of this incident are relevant. Not to repeat that which has been redacted, but I have the impression that the stern of the boat in question may have been against the offside bank on the Staffs & Worcs. If so, this isn't the first time that something odd has happened there - another boat we were travelling with has had the tiller unexpectedly wrenched round when making that turn, so hard that it jammed hard over and had to be wrestled back into place once we had hauled the boat into the narrows. I have nearly jammed the counter under part of the offside bank myself. In both cases, this was making the turn onto the SU from southbound on the S&W, so a particularly tight turn which uses the whole width of the canal. I mention this because, whilst we can all try to improve our practice, if there is an unseen hazard at a particular location this might be something else which would benefit from addressing.

 

Alec

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1 hour ago, koukouvagia said:

I always steered from the step with the tiller in the small of my back.  

 

I've always done that, and when it starts to hurt (on 8+ hour days) I've used a butt-pad in reverse.

 

Something like this but without the bolt. 

Simply clips onto your waist and the tiller goes into (a very very loose fit) and takes the pressure off the small of your back.

 

 

Surecatch Kunnan Butt Pad Stand Up – Glasgow Angling Centre

 

Image result for fisherman using butt pad

 

 

 

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I remember a nasty incident with a hire boat which was turning by the Tesco at Rickmansworth. The river Gade/Colne comes across there and tends to push the boat towards the low iron footbridge. There are/were wooden posts to prevent bridge collisions. 

 

As the boat was being manoeuvred the rudder apparently caught one of the wooden posts and the person at the tiller was thrown violently against the guard rail on the back of the boat by the tiller arm. I believe she suffered broken bones but did not end up in the water. 

 

Very nasty. 

 

One must assume that hire boaters are given instructions not to be in the arc of the tiller but perhaps they are not told what can happen in a split second. 

 

It could be one for shock tactics but maybe that would be offputting. 

 

 

 

 

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Could a mitigation for tiller injuries be as simple is reducing the arc through which the tiller can swing? In almost all NB designs the rudder can swing until the lifting eye on the top rear of the rudder hits the side of the counter, and that's close to 90 degrees. It's actually a far wider swing than is useful for steering: the maximum sideways force is generated when the the rudder is about 45 degrees (or maybe a bit more) from straight ahead. Moving the rudder further than that is pointless or even self defeating.

 

If stops could added to the rudder mechanism, maybe in the top bearing, to control the rudder movement over a controlled arc rather that the arc that just happens to be allowed by the geometry of the rudder/lifting-eye/counter then it could be engineered to be less likely to toss a steerer over the side whilst still allowing enough movement for efficient steering.

 

MP.

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7 hours ago, MoominPapa said:

In almost all NB designs the rudder can swing until the lifting eye on the top rear of the rudder hits the side of the counter, and that's close to 90 degrees.

Not mine (as was). The tiller swing was designed to be limited so that the tiller did not hit the lock wall (assuming the boat was horizontal!).

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5 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Not mine (as was). The tiller swing was designed to be limited so that the tiller did not hit the lock wall (assuming the boat was horizontal!).

Nor mine either. It stops about 5mm short of the swan neck fouling the suicide seats, so there's about a 60 degree tiller swing each direction. I've never investigated why, but clearly there are some sort of rudder lock stops fitted.

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Hire boats we have hired have had a huge tiller arc.

 

We managed to snap the tiller handle on NB Helena whilst exiting a wide lock on the Leicester line single gating. The tiller swung that far that it exceeded the width of the boat by enough to snag the closed lock gate.

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2 hours ago, gatekrash said:

Nor mine either. It stops about 5mm short of the swan neck fouling the suicide seats, so there's about a 60 degree tiller swing each direction. I've never investigated why, but clearly there are some sort of rudder lock stops fitted.


It would be nice to think that the fitter of the seats insisted on that modification.

 

@MoominPapa’s suggestion is a good one. Make it safe by design.

 

Earlier today I watching a steerer set off from a lock landing in forward gear and no hands on the tiller. It was at 90 degrees, water all over the place and very little forward or sideways movement until they took hold of the tiller and brought it back to a lesser angle.

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I recall 35 degrees as being the maximum effective rudder angle from my marine engineering BTEC back in the 90s. Not sure if this translates to 65 degrees but I think it was 35 degrees from straight ahead. 

 

A lot less than people would think. 

 

Could be wrong. The old grey cells aren't what they were all those yars ago. 

 

A good idea may be extensions to the uxter plate which stop the rudder blade and also act as steps to help getting out. 

 

I have seen these on some wide beans. 

 

I do think that significantly limiting the travel of the rudder is technically the answer and could help people learn how to handle boats better as well. 

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8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I do think that significantly limiting the travel of the rudder is technically the answer and could help people learn how to handle boats better as well. 

 

I don't.  There are times when being able to put the tiller hard over is advantageous.

 

A rudder stop is the equivalent of stabilisers on a bike, might be handy if you have no idea but prevents you using the full capabilities of the vessel.

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15 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I recall 35 degrees as being the maximum effective rudder angle from my marine engineering BTEC back in the 90s. Not sure if this translates to 65 degrees but I think it was 35 degrees from straight ahead. 

 

A lot less than people would think. 

 

Could be wrong. The old grey cells aren't what they were all those yars ago. 

 

A good idea may be extensions to the uxter plate which stop the rudder blade and also act as steps to help getting out. 

 

I have seen these on some wide beans. 

 

I do think that significantly limiting the travel of the rudder is technically the answer and could help people learn how to handle boats better as well. 

That is true if the boat is moving forward but a stationary boat with a big rudder can turn in its own length by putting the rudder at 90deg using fwd an reverse. The rudder blocks the flow of the water to from the prop as well as pushing water out sideways. If you see what I mean ;)

 

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13 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I don't.  There are times when being able to put the tiller hard over is advantageous.

 

A rudder stop is the equivalent of stabilisers on a bike, might be handy if you have no idea but prevents you using the full capabilities of the vessel.

Yes but do you want general pleasure boaters to be using the full capabilities of the vessel? 

 

It seems improbable that people who are geared up to use the full capabilities of the vessel would get into trouble but for others there is an argument for limiting the capabilities of the vessel. 

 

I was thinking of hire boats. I know this incident did not involve a hire boat so I guess it is a moot point. 

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8 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

That is true if the boat is moving forward but a stationary boat with a big rudder can turn in its own length by putting the rudder at 90deg using fwd an reverse. The rudder blocks the flow of the water to from the prop as well as pushing water out sideways. If you see what I mean ;)

 

It's also not true with a Schilling rudder which can be effective up to about 75 degrees... 😉

 

(at which point they can provide sideways thrust only, just like a stern thruster)

 

But obviously there's no point doing this because a flat plate rudder was good enough in the old days... 😉

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18 minutes ago, David Mack said:

On a full length boat you sometimes need to put the rudder right over to be able to reverse up to the cill far enough to open the bottom gate(s).

If the rudder travel is limited the rudder must be more vulnerable to damage when a surge carries the boat rapidly backwards in a lock.

 

 

Also, when my engine goes out occasionally it is convenient to push the rudder over to its limit of almost 90 degrees, so it acts as drogue/brake to help get some way off before I hit whatever is up ahead. 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

(at which point they can provide sideways thrust only, just like a stern thruster)

 

Not sure I totally buy that, unless they have a flight blade (forward of the rudder stock) so long it can catch ALL of the prop flow, on both sides of the rudder stock.

 

 

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I’ve steered boats where the rudder movement is limited to a lot less than 90 degrees each way. Yes it would be problematic on full length ex-working boats but no one will be insisting they are modified. Anyway they’re all steered from a safe position, aren’t they?

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7 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Also, when my engine goes out occasionally it is convenient to push the rudder over to its limit of almost 90 degrees, so it acts as drogue/brake to help get some way off before I hit whatever is up ahead. 

 

 

 

 

Not sure I totally buy that, unless they have a flight blade (forward of the rudder stock) so long it can catch ALL of the prop flow, on both sides of the rudder stock.

 

 

I'll dig out the curves which show this when I get home -- amd I'll measure it whn my boat is in the water 🙂

 

They don't have to "capture" the entire flow from the prop by being the same width, so long as the water flows smoothly around the back instead of breaking away turbulently like a flat plate even the flow not covered by the rudder is deflected -- otherwide there would have to be a hole in the water...

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15 hours ago, GUMPY said:

That is true if the boat is moving forward but a stationary boat with a big rudder can turn in its own length by putting the rudder at 90deg using fwd an reverse. The rudder blocks the flow of the water to from the prop as well as pushing water out sideways. If you see what I mean ;)

 

I don't understand the second sentence, please use standard English grammar (⁠•⁠‿⁠•⁠)

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On 05/06/2023 at 10:47, koukouvagia said:

I remember this 1995 accident well.  I wonder if the coroner's advice about the dangers while reversing was ever acted upon.

 

That's the one I referred to in my post upthread. Still shocking to remember. We at UCC certainly started fitting a warning notice - properly engraved plastic signs to "stand forward of whilst steering", and of course you do your best to teach hirers where to stand, and tell them why - but there's a lot to take in, and once you've left them to it, the proper learning process begins.

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24 minutes ago, Richard Carter said:

 

That's the one I referred to in my post upthread. Still shocking to remember. We at UCC certainly started fitting a warning notice - properly engraved plastic signs to "stand forward of whilst steering", and of course you do your best to teach hirers where to stand, and tell them why - but there's a lot to take in, and once you've left them to it, the proper learning process begins.

Correct, there is a lot to take in, and dealing with hirers is difficult.

You can send them a leaflet before they arrive.

But the onboard safety briefing should be clear. There are a few basic dangers which are not obvious, these should be spelled out, 

Handling the boat by the helmsman.

Locking.

Some people will just follow instructions, but most need to have the reasons explained.

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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On 05/06/2023 at 08:47, koukouvagia said:

I always steered from the step with the tiller in the small of my back.  

I sometimes do that, especially  in the sort of inclement weather we often seem to get, when I am wearing plenty of layers of warm clothing. It allows me to hold an umbrella in one hand and a warming mug of hot tea in the other. 

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