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Awful incident a Autherley Junction today.


churchward

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42 minutes ago, alias said:

 

On an early hire holiday 30 odd years ago I had a similar occurrence moving forward in the narrows at Pendeford.  The rudder and tiller went around with such force that the rudder jammed against the hull.  It's a rare occurrence, (hasn't happened since), but nevertheless can happen, so worth acknowledging and standing in the right place whether in forward or reverse.

Indeed, but there's one significant difference between the possible consequences -- ahead=wet, reverse=dead... 😞

 

If a boater wants to stand alongside the tiller when going ahead, they're very unlikely to come to much harm as a result, however much tutting and disapproval this may cause from the purists.

 

Doing it while going astern is a very different kettle of fish, as this incident shows, and should be very strongly discouraged given the number of boaters who have died as a result... 😞

Edited by IanD
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I'm on the Huddersfield Broad having decided not to attempt the Narrow singlehanded, I m glad I did this from previous posts, and on advice from CRT employee (leaping off boat was mentioned) also it's currently effectively closed, (water resources).

I use a good centre line plus a pole to position the boat in the lock,  from the, towpath, and reduce the level very slowly using one paddle so I can see the cill emerging , no need to rush at any stage. How anyone would manage with a sixty footer is beyond me, I had to ask a bystander to hold a door open as it was after a bit of dalliance in one

 lock. 

Edited by LadyG
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3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I'm on the Huddersfield Broad having decided not to attempt the Narrow singlehanded, I m glad I did this from previous posts, also it's currently effectively closed, (water resources). I use a good centre line plus a pole to position the boat in the lock,  and reduce the level very slowly using one paddle so I can see the cill emerging , no need to rush at any stage. How anyone would manage with a sixty footer is beyond me, I had to ask a bystander to hold door open as it was after a bit of dalliance in the lock.


I'm guessing this is meant for another thread?

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4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I'm on the Huddersfield Broad having decided not to attempt the Narrow singlehanded, I m glad I did this from previous posts, also it's currently effectively closed, (water resources). I use a good centre line plus a pole to position the boat in the lock,  and reduce the level very slowly using one paddle so I can see the cill emerging , no need to rush at any stage. How anyone would manage with a sixty footer is beyond me, I had to ask a bystander to hold door open as it was after a bit of dalliance in the lock.

Wrong thread?

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10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Indeed, but there's one significant difference between the possible consequences -- ahead=wet, reverse=dead... 😞

 

That isn't the full set of outcomes - stand in front of tiller in ahead and stay dry, in the example I mentioned. 

Edited by alias
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It could be interesting to treat a boat as if it were a vehicle and have a warning of some sort to indicate that it is reversing. 

 

It could be a voice or a "psssht psssht" thing or a siren. 

 

Whatever it is it would help alert the person on the boat of potential danger. 

 

Obviously everyone knows that reversing a narrow boat while being in the arc of the tiller is a Bad Idea but occasionally one could become complacent. 

 

If an alarm of some sort went orf immediately as reverse was engaged it could help raise awareness at the time. 

 

Easy thing to do.

Typo edit

Edited by magnetman
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31 minutes ago, alias said:

 

That isn't the full set of outcomes - stand in front of tiller in ahead and stay dry, in the example I mentioned. 

I think you know perfectly well that I meant the consequences *if* you got knocked over the stern by the tiller, because that's what I actually said... 😉

 

(and I also thought we were going to avoid pointless needling and nitpicking on a thread about a tragic subject?)

 

26 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It could be interesting to treat a boat as if it were a vehicle and have a warning of some sort to indicate that it is reversing. 

 

It could be a voice or a "psssht psssht" thing or a siren. 

 

Whatever it is it would help alert the person on the boat of potential danger. 

 

Obviously everyone knows that reversing a narrow boat while being in the arc of the tiller is a Bad Idea but occasionally one could become complacent. 

 

If an alarm of some sort went orf immediately as reverse was engaged it could help raise awareness at the time. 

 

Easy thing to do.

Typo edit

 

Nowadays it would be very simple to trigger a quiet voice -- so it doesn't drive everyone else mad -- saying something like "Stand clear of the tiller when going astern".

 

Though I'm sure some boat owners -- as opposed to hirers -- would be annoyed by this and start going on about "elf'n'safety gone mad" and "nanny state again".

 

Even though it seems they're the ones who seem to be most likely to be killed this way... 😞

 

(is there any recorded case of a hire boater suffering this fate, or were they all owners?)

Edited by IanD
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34 minutes ago, booke23 said:


I'm guessing this is meant for another thread?

Yes and no, I was responding to earlier discussions on this thread , before reading the latest update on the e original incident.

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12 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

(is there any recorded case of a hire boater suffering this fate, or were they all owners?)

Edited 4 minutes ago by IanD

I believe the accident at Cropredy was someone on a hire boat.

 

N

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53 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It could be interesting to treat a boat as if it were a vehicle and have a warning of some sort to indicate that it is reversing. 

 

It could be a voice or a "psssht psssht" thing or a siren. 

 

Whatever it is it would help alert the person on the boat of potential danger. 

 

Obviously everyone knows that reversing a narrow boat while being in the arc of the tiller is a Bad Idea but occasionally one could become complacent. 

 

If an alarm of some sort went orf immediately as reverse was engaged it could help raise awareness at the time. 

 

Easy thing to do.

Typo edit

Other boaters may get annoyed when you set off early with a long reverse at somewhere like Braunston or Great Haywood to go the othe way at the junction.

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51 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Other boaters may get annoyed when you set off early with a long reverse at somewhere like Braunston or Great Haywood to go the othe way at the junction.

There is that. 

 

One could have a switch to turn it orf with. 

 

Funnily enough my best reversing job ever was at Braun St On Turn going back from the other side of the Hillmorton side A45 bridge to the junction in a 55ft narrow boat with no bow thruster. I made it all the way round to the entrance to the cut going to the puddle banks without hitting another boat or the side. 

 

Nobody was watching. 

Edited by magnetman
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3 hours ago, IanD said:

Indeed, but there's one significant difference between the possible consequences -- ahead=wet, reverse=dead... 😞

 

If a boater wants to stand alongside the tiller when going ahead, they're very unlikely to come to much harm as a result, however much tutting and disapproval this may cause from the purists.

 

Doing it while going astern is a very different kettle of fish, as this incident shows, and should be very strongly discouraged given the number of boaters who have died as a result... 😞

Or be crushed between the tiller and back rail. Ribs, kidneys, hips. My feet and legs get very weary and I do need to relieve them so I sometimes sit on the back rail. There is no room for a seat forward of the tiller. At worst I will be tossed over the back and I never do this unless I am in an open canal with no visible  hazards. I’d rather take my chances with the canal than be jammed against the back rail. In reverse I always look down the tiller any case and when manoeuvring always again stand in front of the tiller. It would be good to fit a stop to the tiller that would only be used when sitting at the back. A bit of rope looped from the side rail to the tiller on the opposite side to where I sit would do this but then I would probably trip over the rope….

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21 hours ago, Lloyd Chandler said:

Regarding the original post and accident.  Myself, sister and  her husband were at the scene of the accident on Wednesday.  We were the three people who jumped in and pulled the man out from beneath the boat. I did not witness him actually fall in as we were in the stop lock at the time.  Many passers by and the staff at the marina were there and offered assistance.  The paramedics were fantastic too.  His wife was lovely and coped  incredible well considering the ordeal.  I hope very much the gentleman is recovering well in hospital.

Please all, take care out there and safe boating. Can I recomend downloading an app called "what three words" which helps give your exact location to emergency services and also looking at some youtube videos on resuscitation and basic first aid.    You never know when you might need it.  

Lloyd edited his post above to remove some of the more graphic details, as these may cause distress to the victims family and friends. He requested that the quotes from his original more detailed post be altered likewise for the same reason. This has now been done. It is not something the moderators usually do, but in this case, I thought it appropriate. Well done to Lloyd and his companions for trying to save this man's life.

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4 hours ago, IanD said:

(is there any recorded case of a hire boater suffering this fate, or were they all owners?)

 

In addition to the others already mentioned, I can add the case of a UCC hireboat negotiating a tight turn at Spaghetti Jn in the mid 90s. I believe as a result of the coroner's enquiry the recommendation to fix a warning notice on hireboats was introduced.

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How terribly sad. Condolences to the family, and massive thumbs up to those who were there and helped, even just looked on as sometimes too many helping can be as bad as none. You can be proud of yourselves and hope the worst memories will fade. 
 

Do all these fatalities get looked at by MIAB? I’ve looked and can’t find any reference to the fatal accident at Welford in Spring last year. I wonder how many we don’t know about? When we looked at a boat two years ago the broker took us aside to warn us the the reason it was for sale was due to a life changing accident. I hadn’t heard of it and no Google search revealed it.

 

Reminding all onboard to put the engine to neutral if someone goes overboard may help but often it seems it happens too quickly to do anything and the boater is often on their own on the stern anyway. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

How terribly sad. Condolences to the family, and massive thumbs up to those who were there and helped, even just looked on as sometimes too many helping can be as bad as none. You can be proud of yourselves and hope the worst memories will fade. 
 

Do all these fatalities get looked at by MIAB? I’ve looked and can’t find any reference to the fatal accident at Welford in Spring last year. I wonder how many we don’t know about? When we looked at a boat two years ago the broker took us aside to warn us the the reason it was for sale was due to a life changing accident. I hadn’t heard of it and no Google search revealed it.

 

Reminding all onboard to put the engine to neutral if someone goes overboard may help but often it seems it happens too quickly to do anything and the boater is often on their own on the stern anyway. 

 

 

The MAIB seem to concentrate their efforts on lumpy water boating accidents along with 'big' river accidents. 

 

Though they have done investigations into fatalities on canals in the past.

Eg

 

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/contact-and-sinking-of-narrow-boat-drum-major-while-descending-in-steg-neck-lock-on-the-leeds-and-liverpool-canal-near-gargrave-england-with-loss-of-4-lives

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I had read the full piece written by @Lloyd Chandler late last night and should any of us ever be in need of help we should hope that someone of equal courage and attitude is on hand. (The original also made it clear there were others involved in the rescue). I note the differing reported outcomes for the victim and hope that the first hand account is the definitive one as such actions may literally have been lifesavers.

 

A few hours after I'd passed Autherley yesterday I had my own little accident when I took a dip for the first time ever. Although the circumstances were fairly benign it wasn't lost on me that I'd done something that is common but also something formal training told me not to do. I pushed the boat away from a lock landing while on the bank and then stepped on to the counter. Or rather I didn't. As with all accidents it happened in a flash and you're left puzzled and wondering what on earth just happened. I had to be hauled out by one of the crew on the hire boat that was exiting the lock. Thankfully nothing more than a small cut and some bumps and bruises to my right leg and a graze on my left arm, the latter possibly from the piling on getting out.

 

That got me thinking why we're taught techniques that might seem unnecessary and even pedantic. It's because they have outcomes that don't lead to situations where the streerer or crew can come to harm. If I'd have stepped onto the counter and then pushed the boat away I wouldn't have created the opportunity to fall in. The stern line example is also a case in point. The loss of the line is very much more likely to happen than the rope becoming trapped in the lock gates or similar but it's ultimately of little or no consequence whereas the latter occurence has been shown to be potentially fatal, so no matter how unlikely it's best avoided at source.

 

As with all training it only takes you so far. The rest is up to the individual to use what they are told. Lesson learned. 

 

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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I see a lot of boats with a long tiller which to my mind is long enough to catch on the lock wall or a walkway when singlehanded.

I have removed the wooden handle and steer with a short tiller from the trad stern but stand in front of the tiller at all times  with the doors closed. There is just room to do this even with winter coat and lifejacket.

This is how I steer, with hand on throttle most of the time,  so I can immediately knock it in to neutral.

Progress is slightly slower but have not had anything round prop for a while (!).

My stern line sits on the sliding hatch with the windlass, one end is knotted through the windlass and one end loosely knotted round the short radio aerial so neither rope nor windlass are likely to be lost. I've not had rope round prop since doing this, also with the doors closed the throttle is not going to be knocked in to gear inadvertently as I step off the boat, I also close hatch to prevent Fernando jumping out when I am not on board.

When salty water sailor, the mantra was "one hand for yourself, one for the boat", now it's always two hands on the boat as I move along the gunwales. Two hands on the ladder when  climbing in or out the lock, the Centreline and windlass on a bight round my arm.

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When I use lock ladders I take nothing with me. Both centre line and windlass are thrown up to the lockside first when ascending, and left there for collection after I’m on the cabin top when descending. Just less stuff to snag.

 

Never got on with having the windlass about my person so I always carry it by hand. It increases the risk of losing it but that’s a tolerable outcome.

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8 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

I had read the full piece written by @Lloyd Chandler late last night and should any of us ever be in need of help we should hope that someone of equal courage and attitude is on hand. (The original also made it clear there were others involved in the rescue). I note the differing reported outcomes for the victim and hope that the first hand account is the definitive one as such actions may literally have been lifesavers.

 

A few hours after I'd passed Autherley yesterday I had my own little accident when I took a dip for the first time ever. Although the circumstances were fairly benign it wasn't lost on me that I'd done something that is common but also something formal training told me not to do. I pushed the boat away from a lock landing while on the bank and then stepped on to the counter. Or rather I didn't. As with all accidents it happened in a flash and you're left puzzled and wondering what on earth just happened. I had to be hauled out by one of the crew on the hire boat that was exiting the lock. Thankfully nothing more than a small cut and some bumps and bruises to my right leg and a graze on my left arm, the latter possibly from the piling on getting out.

 

That got me thinking why we're taught techniques that might seem unnecessary and even pedantic. It's because they have outcomes that don't lead to situations where the streerer or crew can come to harm. If I'd have stepped onto the counter and then pushed the boat away I wouldn't have created the opportunity to fall in. The stern line example is also a case in point. The loss of the line is very much more likely to happen than the rope becoming trapped in the lock gates or similar but it's ultimately of little or no consequence whereas the latter occurence has been shown to be potentially fatal, so no matter how unlikely it's best avoided at source.

 

As with all training it only takes you so far. The rest is up to the individual to use what they are told. Lesson learned. 

 

 

I can tell you for certain that the poor man died that night in the hospital.  We had to stay the next day after the incident as I was waiting for a part to arrive at Oxley Marine and Napton Narrowboats who are looking after the couple's boat was informed.   There is no difference in the reported outcome as Lloyd Chandler did not know the fatal outcome as they moved on the same day. He like us was hoping for his survival once in Hospital.

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