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Awful incident a Autherley Junction today.


churchward

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5 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

RE props: another possibility is to have a shroud or short tunnel around the prop or design a stern swim, both, in some way, to prevent a large object like a human body coming into contact with the prop. 

 

An interesting option and very common on outboard motor powered vessels. I think on canals it might get clogged up and end up causing enough problems for the owner to remove it. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Hang on!  So you're telling me there are boats out there which don't require continuous sideways pressure on the tiller?

Not many... 😉

 

But some are *much* worse than others, I've been on boats which needed so much force to steer straight that you had to take the strain off your arm by standing next to the tiller and using your hip to hold it in place. And yes I'm perfectly well aware that this is not a good idea, but what do you do when there's no other option?

 

On the positive side, AFAIK all the fatal "rudder/tiller-tips-steerer-over-the-stern" incidents have happened when going astern, not when cruising ahead. But the problem is that when you've got used to standing to the side of the tiller in this case, it's easy to forget to move out of the way when going astern... 😞

Edited by IanD
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34 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

I remember seeing a cruiser stern  day hire boat with a bright yellow arc painted on the deck boards with wording something like "do not stand in this area" written on the deck. Can't remember whose it was but it seemed like a good idea for Novices.

This is part of CRT's latest code of practice for all hire craft.

 

I think it follows the Cropredy accident.

 

N

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Part of the prob is ignorance, plenty of experienced boaters don't understand the dynamics of risks involved, let alone first time hirers with a romantic and exciting vision of a canal boat holiday, instruction and warnings won't suffice, warning families of possible gruesome accidents could put folk right off the whole idea of of a canal boat break, it has to addressed at source, ie the actual boat design. 

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18 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Hang on!  So you're telling me there are boats out there which don't require continuous sideways pressure on the tiller?

 

Are you being serious? 

 

I once borrowed a hire boat that needed continuous gentle pressure on the tiller to go straight, which drove me demented. I think it must have been a banana boat.

 

No other boat I've ever steered suffers from this though. 

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2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Are you being serious? 

 

I once borrowed a hire boat that needed continuous gentle pressure on the tiller to go straight, which drove me demented. I think it must have been a banana boat.

 

No other boat I've ever steered suffers from this though. 

When we bought Belfast you needed to hold the tiller in line with the side of the cabin hatch to go straight ahead. Not a problem for those who steered by looking at where the boat was going, but a real problem for those who just steered by the tiller position!

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3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

When we bought Belfast you needed to hold the tiller in line with the side of the cabin hatch to go straight ahead. Not a problem for those who steered by looking at where the boat was going, but a real problem for those who just steered by the tiller position!

 

That sounds REALLY confusing!! 

 

 

I definitely steer relying on the tiller bar to be pointing where the rudder is pointing.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Part of the prob is ignorance, plenty of experienced boaters don't understand the dynamics of risks involved, let alone first time hirers with a romantic and exciting vision of a canal boat holiday, instruction and warnings won't suffice, warning families of possible gruesome accidents could put folk right off the whole idea of of a canal boat break, it has to addressed at source, ie the actual boat design. 

Boats with an engine on canals built hundreds of years ago will always have some safety risks which can't easily be "designed out", it's the nature of the beast.

 

Other than banning boats and closing the canals, the best that can be done is to warn people against the most likely/most dangerous things that can go wrong, especially if this means potentially sinking the boat or injuring/killing someone -- and that is exactly what hire companies already do, for example warning against:

 

1. Hanging the boat up on the cill in a lock

2. Standing inside the arc swept by the tiller

3. Tying ropes to a bollard when descending a lock

4. Take care when clearing weed hatch -- keys in pocket, make sure to refit it properly

5. Walking along gunwales or on roof unless absolutely necessary

 

It's just common sense from both sides, and possibly stops the hire company getting sued if something happens that they didn't warn about... 😉

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12 hours ago, IanD said:

It is a horrible subject, but one that has to be faced up to if it means reducing the chance of it happening to somebody else in the future.

 

From what @churchward implied it seems likely that the boat was going astern and the tiller swept the steerer overboard, possibly with the assistance of seats but this isn't clear.

 

If this is the case then it just reinforces the oft-quoted advice about where to stand when steering (and where not to), and possibly the inadvisability of seats in the wrong place -- and either way it wouldn't the first time this has happened.


Fully agree. Just thought our little discourse threatened the boundaries of being respectable in the circumstances.

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Just now, Captain Pegg said:


Fully agree. Just thought our little discourse threatened the boundaries of being respectable in the circumstances.

 

And as so often on the internet, heated by wrong assumptions and misunderstandings which wouldn't happen when talking face-to-face... 😉

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1 hour ago, GUMPY said:

I remember seeing a cruiser stern  day hire boat with a bright yellow arc painted on the deck boards with wording something like "do not stand in this area" written on the deck. Can't remember whose it was but it seemed like a good idea for Novices.

I think that is a requirement for hire boats now, we had a club member go over the back while reversing, we also have a club member who always sits beside the tiller on an ex Black Prince boat

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Straight ahead on Idleness was with the tillar arm pointing to the edge of the hatch. The arm was in line with the rudder it's just that the JP and the Crowther prop produced so much prop walk in forward that one needed to counteract the turning moment.

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4 hours ago, GUMPY said:

Straight ahead on Idleness was with the tillar arm pointing to the edge of the hatch. The arm was in line with the rudder it's just that the JP and the Crowther prop produced so much prop walk in forward that one needed to counteract the turning moment.

Jarrah was much  like that.  It was too much like hard work for the boss.  The solution was a couple of feet of 25 x 3 mm steel strip  tacked on  the back of the rudder  as a trim tab and bent to the right angle with an adjustable.  

 

N

  

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12 hours ago, magnetman said:

 

An interesting option and very common on outboard motor powered vessels. I think on canals it might get clogged up and end up causing enough problems for the owner to remove it. 

 

 

Universal on our surf patrol rigid inflatable boats for obvious reasons as their very purpose is to get close enough to board people in the water, in far from benign conditions.

But a shroud would considerably impede the unfortunately too often task, of clearing rubbish and weed off the propellor of a narrowboat.

 

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21 hours ago, Lloyd Chandler said:

Regarding the original post and accident.  Myself, sister and  her husband were at the scene of the accident on Wednesday.  We were the three people who jumped in and pulled the man out from beneath the boat. I did not witness him actually fall in as we were in the stop lock at the time.  Many passers by and the staff at the marina were there and offered assistance.  The paramedics were fantastic too.  His wife was lovely and coped  incredible well considering the ordeal.  I hope very much the gentleman is recovering well in hospital.

Please all, take care out there and safe boating. Can I recomend downloading an app called "what three words" which helps give your exact location to emergency services and also looking at some youtube videos on resuscitation and basic first aid.    You never know when you might need it.  

Well done to you for your actions, you have done yourself proud whatever the outcome.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
Edited by a Mod. Lloyd Chandler has requested the more graphic details be removed in the quote as these may distress the victims family.
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21 hours ago, Lloyd Chandler said:

Regarding the original post and accident.  Myself, sister and  her husband were at the scene of the accident on Wednesday.  We were the three people who jumped in and pulled the man out from beneath the boat. I did not witness him actually fall in as we were in the stop lock at the time.  Many passers by and the staff at the marina were there and offered assistance.  The paramedics were fantastic too.  His wife was lovely and coped  incredible well considering the ordeal.  I hope very much the gentleman is recovering well in hospital.

Please all, take care out there and safe boating. Can I recomend downloading an app called "what three words" which helps give your exact location to emergency services and also looking at some youtube videos on resuscitation and basic first aid.    You never know when you might need it.  

 

Sobering read. PM sent.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
Edited by a Mod. Lloyd Chandler has requested the more graphic details be removed in the quote as these may distress the victims family. He has modified his own post.
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21 hours ago, Lloyd Chandler said:

Regarding the original post and accident.  Myself, sister and  her husband were at the scene of the accident on Wednesday.  We were the three people who jumped in and pulled the man out from beneath the boat. I did not witness him actually fall in as we were in the stop lock at the time.  Many passers by and the staff at the marina were there and offered assistance.  The paramedics were fantastic too.  His wife was lovely and coped  incredible well considering the ordeal.  I hope very much the gentleman is recovering well in hospital.

Please all, take care out there and safe boating. Can I recomend downloading an app called "what three words" which helps give your exact location to emergency services and also looking at some youtube videos on resuscitation and basic first aid.    You never know when you might need it.  

Well done on saving his life

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
Edited by a Mod. Lloyd Chandler has requested the more graphic details be removed in the quote as these may distress the victims family. He has modified his own post.
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21 hours ago, Lloyd Chandler said:

Regarding the original post and accident.  Myself, sister and  her husband were at the scene of the accident on Wednesday.  We were the three people who jumped in and pulled the man out from beneath the boat. I did not witness him actually fall in as we were in the stop lock at the time.  Many passers by and the staff at the marina were there and offered assistance.  The paramedics were fantastic too.  His wife was lovely and coped  incredible well considering the ordeal.  I hope very much the gentleman is recovering well in hospital.

Please all, take care out there and safe boating. Can I recomend downloading an app called "what three words" which helps give your exact location to emergency services and also looking at some youtube videos on resuscitation and basic first aid.    You never know when you might need it.  

Very sobering reading.

You all gave the gentleman absolutely the best chance.

You can all be really proud.

And best wishes to everbody who witnessed the scene, you all must be suffering the after effects. 

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
Edited by a Mod. Lloyd Chandler has requested the more graphic details be removed in the quote as these may distress the victims family. He has modified his own post.
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9 hours ago, Lloyd Chandler said:

Regarding the original post and accident.  Myself, sister and  her husband were at the scene of the accident on Wednesday.  We were the three people who jumped in and pulled the man out from beneath the boat. I did not witness him actually fall in as we were in the stop lock at the time.  Many passers by and the staff at the marina were there and offered assistance.  The paramedics were fantastic too.  His wife was lovely and coped  incredible well considering the ordeal.  I hope very much the gentleman is recovering well in hospital.

Please all, take care out there and safe boating. Can I recomend downloading an app called "what three words" which helps give your exact location to emergency services and also looking at some youtube videos on resuscitation and basic first aid.    You never know when you might need it.  

 

I am sure seeing what went on that day that your and others' actions helped give the man his best chance as did the emergency services. 

 

A terrible day that will live long in my memory for sure.

 

Take care.  I have sent you a Private Message if you are able to pick that up.

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On 02/06/2023 at 11:11, IanD said:

Not many... 😉

 

But some are *much* worse than others, I've been on boats which needed so much force to steer straight that you had to take the strain off your arm by standing next to the tiller and using your hip to hold it in place. And yes I'm perfectly well aware that this is not a good idea, but what do you do when there's no other option?

 

On the positive side, AFAIK all the fatal "rudder/tiller-tips-steerer-over-the-stern" incidents have happened when going astern, not when cruising ahead. But the problem is that when you've got used to standing to the side of the tiller in this case, it's easy to forget to move out of the way when going astern... 😞

 

Whilst I agree that it is more likely to happen in astern, it can happen when going forwards.

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I had the tiller forcibly ripped from my hands when the boat went over an underwater obstruction, possibly an oil drum, which lifted first the bow, then the stern. Had I been standing in the arc of the tiller I have no doubt that I would have been pushed overboard.

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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

Whilst I agree that it is more likely to happen in astern, it can happen when going forwards.

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I had the tiller forcibly ripped from my hands when the boat went over an underwater obstruction, possibly an oil drum, which lifted first the bow, then the stern. Had I been standing in the arc of the tiller I have no doubt that I would have been pushed overboard.

A very rare occurrence though -- and unlike the more common occurrence when going astern (including the tragic case under discussion), the boat carries on moving forward away from you instead of reversing over you and pulling you into the prop, so also far less likely to result in serious injury or a fatality. Being knocked over the side by the tiller when going astern is what boaters should be concerned about, because it kills people... 😞

Edited by IanD
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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

Whilst I agree that it is more likely to happen in astern, it can happen when going forwards.

and its happened to me. But my square cruiser stern gave me enough space to be pushed back by the tiller without going over the stern.  It was quite a shock.

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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

Whilst I agree that it is more likely to happen in astern, it can happen when going forwards.

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I had the tiller forcibly ripped from my hands when the boat went over an underwater obstruction, possibly an oil drum, which lifted first the bow, then the stern. Had I been standing in the arc of the tiller I have no doubt that I would have been pushed overboard.

 

On an early hire holiday 30 odd years ago I had a similar occurrence moving forward in the narrows at Pendeford.  The rudder and tiller went around with such force that the rudder jammed against the hull.  It's a rare occurrence, (hasn't happened since), but nevertheless can happen, so worth acknowledging and standing in the right place whether in forward or reverse.

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