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Awful incident a Autherley Junction today.


churchward

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

My '70s Johnson 25, and my early' 80's Yamaha 50 both had kill-cords.

 

Also, neither could be started whilst in gear.

Yes on the bigger outboards it was probably a good marketing feature as they are obviously very dangerous but smaller units maybe a different story. 

 

I've got a Mariner 4 2 smoke from about 1993 which has a button stop as does my Yamaha Malta. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

If it is overridden then what's to stop the steerer falling off the stern and into a turning prop? Better a faff than a death. 

 

Nothing. And I can see where you're coming from. 

 

But you know what humans are like..... without an override, some will just disconnected or cut the spring rendering the safety benefits useless.

Edited by booke23
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Just now, booke23 said:

 

Nothing. And I can see where you're coming from. 

 

But humans will be humans and without an override, some will just disconnected or cut the spring rendering the safety benefits useless.

On that principle there's no point taking any safety precautions which can be hacked to disable them -- meaning, almost any of them.

 

If a few idiots want to disable safety precautions then it's their problem if they get killed or injured as a result. For everyone else who isn't that impatient or stupid, lives will be saved.

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As regards kill switches they are to prevent a runaway boat injuring or killing others in the water, wth a canal boat it's specifically when it's in reverse + a diesel engine can take a few seconds to stop. 

Edited by nb Innisfree
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13 minutes ago, IanD said:

On that principle there's no point taking any safety precautions which can be hacked to disable them -- meaning, almost any of them.

 

A slightly defeatist attitude 😉, but yes. That's why designers have to consider the human factor with devices such as this.

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

So unlike your undoubtedly lovely and well-engineered trad boat, do you have much experience of steering cruiser stern hire boats where the rudder needs a continuous sideways pressure to keep it running straight? Because I have, on numerous occasions, and steering these by standing in front of the tiller facing forwards is unpleasant to start with and painful after a time, because having one arm cranked behind you applying this force is not easy. Or you can stand sideways on in front of the tiller which is mechanically much better for your arm, but results in a cricked neck -- especially in cold weather -- because you're perpetually staring over your left shoulder. So standing a bit off to one side but out of the arc of the tiller with a straighter arm is the best solution in this case -- not the ideal case that you have.

 

That's my experience, because not everyone's is the same as yours, as I was trying to point out.

 

And yes I've also steered trad boats which will track arrow-straight with no force on the tiller where standing as you describe is the best thing to do.

 

Not everybody is the same you -- or me... 😉


Probably worth a reminder that the original point I made was just to further your knowledge that the practice of placing the stern line in a coil on the slide is a contemporary technique taught to all boaters and not some old fashioned nonsense.

 

My boating experience from 1977 to 2015 was pretty much all on hire boats and back in the early days they were all cruiser sterns.

 

My little trad is indeed lovely but being only 35’ long with decent length swims and being configured with a large propellor and rudder relative to its size, coupled with a quite shallow draught, it really does not like sitting happily in the middle of the channel and requires some force to keep straight.

 

Actually some historic boats are exceptionally heavy to steer on account of the size of the prop and rudder when in forward gear, but you can reverse them hard and they stay arrow straight in the channel. If I do that on Vulpes I will go round in circles.

 

Forward of the tiller does not mean facing forwards, just standing clear in the direction of the bow. On Vulpes I stand sideways in the hatch and steer with my right arm at my side and my hand quite close to my hip. I turn my head to face forward often enough to be able to navigate. I think that’s pretty normal for steering a trad. Steering a semi-trad is similar but perhaps not at 90 degrees because there’s generally nowhere comfortable to rest your arse. In that sense a semi-trad is more like a cruiser stern. A cruiser doesn’t force you to stand forward but I still think it’s a wise method to teach. I steer lots of different boats on a regular basis, something you seem to be overlooking, and I will stand forward of the tiller. I think it’s natural but it’s also how I was trained.


Where do you think you’ll stand to steer your semi-trad?

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

It may not be relevant to this accident but can we design a better tiller?   One that disconnects when it encounters a 

Not sure how practicable it would be but something like a weak mechanical link possibly? 

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12 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:


Probably worth a reminder that the original point I made was just to further your knowledge that the practice of placing the stern line in a coil on the slide is a contemporary technique taught to all boaters and not some old fashioned nonsense.

 

My boating experience from 1977 to 2015 was pretty much all on hire boats and back in the early days they were all cruiser sterns.

 

My little trad is indeed lovely but being only 35’ long with decent length swims and being configured with a large propellor and rudder relative to its size, coupled with a quite shallow draught, it really does not like sitting happily in the middle of the channel and requires some force to keep straight.

 

Actually some historic boats are exceptionally heavy to steer on account of the size of the prop and rudder when in forward gear, but you can reverse them hard and they stay arrow straight in the channel. If I do that on Vulpes I will go round in circles.

 

Forward of the tiller does not mean facing forwards, just standing clear in the direction of the bow. On Vulpes I stand sideways in the hatch and steer with my right arm at my side and my hand quite close to my hip. I turn my head to face forward often enough to be able to navigate. I think that’s pretty normal for steering a trad. Steering a semi-trad is similar but perhaps not at 90 degrees because there’s generally nowhere comfortable to rest your arse. In that sense a semi-trad is more like a cruiser stern. A cruiser doesn’t force you to stand forward but I still think it’s a wise method to teach. I steer lots of different boats on a regular basis, something you seem to be overlooking, and I will stand forward of the tiller. I think it’s natural but it’s also how I was trained.


Where do you think you’ll stand to steer your semi-trad?

 

I didn't mean to imply it was "old-fashioned nonsense", just that it's what trad boaters did in the good old days -- along with all the other things they did which are frowned on nowadays but got them from A to B faster 😉

 

Nothing wrong with it, but it does have disadvantages for newbies -- not you or me, obviously -- for the reasons I pointed out.

 

To answer your final question -- I'll either stand forward of the tiller or sit on the raised seat/bike locker just inside the semi-trad section -- always assuming the tiller is nicely balanced and doesn't pull to one side... 😉

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

In the 90s sometime. 

 

My 1992 Honda BF2 had a button to kill the ignition. My 1996 Honda BF2 has a kill cord fitting. 

 

The manufacturer would only have fitted this if it was a requirement. 

 

So I think around 1994 or something. 

My 1980 Yamaha 85 had a kill cord and couldn't be started in gear.

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6 minutes ago, IanD said:

I didn't mean to imply it was "old-fashioned nonsense", just that it's what trad boaters did in the good old days -- along with all the other things they did which are frowned on nowadays but got them from A to B faster 😉

 

Nothing wrong with it, but it does have disadvantages for newbies -- not you or me, obviously -- for the reasons I pointed out.

 

To answer your final question -- I'll either stand forward of the tiller or sit on the raised seat/bike locker just inside the semi-trad section -- always assuming the tiller is nicely balanced and doesn't pull to one side... 😉


Which is what I’d have expected, only sensible thing to do.

 

Best to put this little sub-plot aside as this is a horrible subject. I’ll be passing Autherley tomorrow. Currently at Wolves top.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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2 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:


Which is what I’d have expected, only sensible thing to do.

 

Best to put this little sub-plot aside as this is a horrible subject. I’ll be passing Autherley tomorrow. Currently at Wolves top.

It is a horrible subject, but one that has to be faced up to if it means reducing the chance of it happening to somebody else in the future.

 

From what @churchward implied it seems likely that the boat was going astern and the tiller swept the steerer overboard, possibly with the assistance of seats but this isn't clear.

 

If this is the case then it just reinforces the oft-quoted advice about where to stand when steering (and where not to), and possibly the inadvisability of seats in the wrong place -- and either way it wouldn't the first time this has happened.

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9 hours ago, GUMPY said:

I have a friend who by all rights should be mincemeat..

It was the habit when coming up the Northampton arm  that you would leave a lock drop the boat into reverse to bring it back to you then step off and close the gate.

J had done this many times until one day as she stepped off the boat her jacket caught on a bolt on the rear doors. This sent her tumbling into the cut behind her boat that was starting to reverse back towards her.  Realising she couldn't get out in time the only place she could go was the gate recess in the lock wall, making herself as small and as upright as she could she shrank into the recess. The boat came back and passed by her and continued back until it hit the bottom gates. J is a small person and had it been anyone bigger they would not have survived.

Since this incident we removed all the bolts of the back doors of our boats and now stop the boat in the lock exit rather than be lazy and let the engine do the work for you.

 

ETA 

Time flies, just looked it up and this happened in March 1998 on the way back from the Westbridge Arm

The video in this thread describes how a woman was injured by the boat propeller after falling in as he boat was reversing back to the top gate. Fortunately she seems to have recovered OK despite some pretty horrible injuries.

 

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12 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

It may not be relevant to this accident but can we design a better tiller?   One that disconnects when it encounters a kick?

Dog clutch.

 

Bod.

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13 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

It may not be relevant to this accident but can we design a better tiller?   One that disconnects when it encounters a kick?

It doesn't need to disconnect, what would be better is something like the torque limiting mechanism you get in a torque wrench -- doesn't move normally but slips under an unusually high torque, set to higher than you'd ever get in normal rudder operation.

 

This wouldn't then need anything like a link replacing afterwards, just jam the rudder with a piece of wood and push the tiller arm back round into alignment.

 

Could even be made as a sealed unit to bolt between the top rudder bearing and the stock, a bit like a flexible prop coupling.

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14 hours ago, Tonka said:

I have reported this post to hopefully get it locked as none of you were there apart from @churchward. Your speculation and bickering is probably not helping the family of the bereaved and will not be helping Churchward 

I don’t see bickering or lack of sympathy.
Yesterday I pulled into the bank stepped off with the centre line and as I do from time to time leant back over the stern from the bank and put the morse in reverse to motor the boat a tad back to a better place to moor. 
This thread has made me for one have a think and I won’t be lazy in the future 

I have every sympathy with Churchward and the family involved. Non of us are as competent as we would like to be.

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The reality is these things will always happen, on my first boat a cruiser stern I had a short tiller it in some ways stopped accidents happening. With my widebeam the wheelhouse stopped accidents happening, also the addition of the wheel steering has made double sure it cant happen. I had a conversation with someone about being safe with tiller and they thought I was mad and it wouldn't happen to them 

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24 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The reality is these things will always happen, on my first boat a cruiser stern I had a short tiller it in some ways stopped accidents happening. With my widebeam the wheelhouse stopped accidents happening, also the addition of the wheel steering has made double sure it cant happen. I had a conversation with someone about being safe with tiller and they thought I was mad and it wouldn't happen to them 

 

Yes accidents will always happen, but that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile making people aware of hazards so they can choose whether to do anything to reduce the risk or not.

 

Hire boat companies already do this (tell people where not to stand at handover, boats are marked with signs or paint on the deck).

 

Boat owners -- like the one you mention -- can be more complacent or ignorant or think they know better or it won't happen to them -- which may explain why most of these incidents seem to happen to them... 😞

Edited by IanD
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I remember seeing a cruiser stern  day hire boat with a bright yellow arc painted on the deck boards with wording something like "do not stand in this area" written on the deck. Can't remember whose it was but it seemed like a good idea for Novices.

Edited by GUMPY
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17 hours ago, IanD said:

 

So unlike your undoubtedly lovely and well-engineered trad boat, do you have much experience of steering cruiser stern hire boats where the rudder needs a continuous sideways pressure to keep it running straight? Because I have, on numerous occasions, and steering these by standing in front of the tiller facing forwards is unpleasant to start with and painful after a time, because having one arm cranked behind you applying this force is not easy. Or you can stand sideways on in front of the tiller which is mechanically much better for your arm, but results in a cricked neck -- especially in cold weather -- because you're perpetually staring over your left shoulder. So standing a bit off to one side but out of the arc of the tiller with a straighter arm is the best solution in this case -- not the ideal case that you have.

 

That's my experience, because not everyone's is the same as yours, as I was trying to point out.

 

And yes I've also steered trad boats which will track arrow-straight with no force on the tiller where standing as you describe is the best thing to do.

 

Not everybody is the same you -- or me... 😉

Hang on!  So you're telling me there are boats out there which don't require continuous sideways pressure on the tiller?

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25 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

I remember seeing a cruiser stern  day hire boat with a bright yellow arc painted on the deck boards with wording something like "do not stand in this area" written on the deck. Can't remember whose it was but it seemed like a good idea for Novices.

That's exactly what I meant; the hire boats I've been on in recent years have all had markings like this. But then I tend to hire the newer boats from companies with a good reputation, who maybe take more care about this than some of the lower-end hire companies with an old fleet.

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