Awful incident a Autherley Junction today.

[Alan de Enfield]

35 minutes ago, Tonka said:

But when did the requirement come in.

 

 

I have no idea, but kill-cords were certainly fitted to outboards over 40 years ago.

 

 

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

It’s not just a “trad” thing. It was part of the syllabus on my RYA helmsman course last year.

 

The other point about it is that it puts the stern line in a position where it is ready to deploy on either rear dolly/stud.  On a boat with a cruiser rail that’s more important than on a trad because those rails are a PITA for deployment of stern lines.

 

Also to add I’ve just had the tiller ripped out of hand by a solid object hitting the rudder. No problem as I was standing in the correct position, which is in front of the tiller no matter what type of stern you’re steering.

 

I'm sure it was on your RYA helmsman course, as demonstrated by the correct use of the word "deploy". However newbie boaters don't have your level of expertise or knowledge, and I've seen the entire rope thrown overboard more than once -- and for boaters like this it can be better to leave one end attached to the boat, and hooks on the stern rail (awkward access and all) seems like a good way to do this.

 

Surely the correct position is outside the arc of the tiller? Which in some boats (e.g. a small trad stern, like yours?) may well mean directly in front of it, but in others (e.g. a large cruiser stern) may be diagonally off to one side, which is easier to steer for most people because they can stand facing forwards with their arm out sideways. And yes, I've steered both types of stern, and had a cricked neck from a trad... 🙂

 

 On both counts you seem to be assuming that everyone is -- or ought to be? -- like you, but they're clearly not... 😉

[Captain Pegg]

13 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I'm sure it was on your RYA helmsman course, as demonstrated by the correct use of the word "deploy". However newbie boaters don't have your level of expertise or knowledge, and I've seen the entire rope thrown overboard more than once -- and for boaters like this it can be better to leave one end attached to the boat, and hooks on the stern rail (awkward access and all) seems like a good way to do this.

 

Surely the correct position is outside the arc of the tiller? Which in some boats (e.g. a small trad stern, like yours?) may well mean directly in front of it, but in others (e.g. a large cruiser stern) may be diagonally off to one side, which is easier to steer for most people because they can stand facing forwards with their arm out sideways. And yes, I've steered both types of stern, and had a cricked neck from a trad... 🙂

 

 On both counts you seem to be assuming that everyone is -- or ought to be? -- like you, but they're clearly not... 😉

No Ian. I think they should should take more notice of organisations accredited to provide inland waterways training than of you.

 

You stand in front of the tiller because you have the full 90 degrees of steering arc available from that position without having to move into a position that is within the arc of the tiller.

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[cuthound]

22 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

It’s not just a “trad” thing. It was part of the syllabus on my RYA helmsman course last year.

 

The other point about it is that it puts the stern line in a position where it is ready to deploy on either rear dolly/stud.  On a boat with a cruiser rail that’s more important than on a trad because those rails are a PITA for deployment of stern lines.

 

Also to add I’ve just had the tiller ripped out of my hand by a solid object hitting the rudder. No problem as I was standing in the correct position, which is in front of the tiller no matter what type of stern you’re steering.

 

Yes I had a similar experience back in the early 90's with my first shareboat. I was passing the layby at Pooley on the Coventry when the boat rode over a submerged object. As the stern dropped the object must have caught the rudder, which was forced violently from my grip. Fortunately I have always steered in front of the tiller, with my hands behind my back.

 

My thoughts are with the family and friends of the poor boater.

[IanD]

Just now, Captain Pegg said:

No Ian. I think they should should take more notice of organisations accredited to provide inland waterways training than of you.

 

You stand in front of the tiller because you have the full 90 degrees of steering arc available from that position.

 

I'm sure you know better than me, I bow to your greater experience... 🙂

[Captain Pegg]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

I'm sure you know better than me, I bow to your greater experience... 🙂

Experience and training.

[booke23]

A terrible incident 🙁. I echo the sentiments that hopefully lessons can be learnt.  

 

I do wonder if a kill cord would be sensible on occasions. I also don't particularly like how a lot of engine manufacturers still manufacture their control panels with a stop button instead of the more modern setup with the stop incorporated into the ignition switch. A lot of people nowadays don't even remember when diesels had stop levers and I can imagine in an emergency situation bystanders frantically turning the ignition key to no effect. 

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Experience and training.

 

So unlike your undoubtedly lovely and well-engineered trad boat, do you have much experience of steering cruiser stern hire boats where the rudder needs a continuous sideways pressure to keep it running straight? Because I have, on numerous occasions, and steering these by standing in front of the tiller facing forwards is unpleasant to start with and painful after a time, because having one arm cranked behind you applying this force is not easy. Or you can stand sideways on in front of the tiller which is mechanically much better for your arm, but results in a cricked neck -- especially in cold weather -- because you're perpetually staring over your left shoulder. So standing a bit off to one side but out of the arc of the tiller with a straighter arm is the best solution in this case -- not the ideal case that you have.

 

That's my experience, because not everyone's is the same as yours, as I was trying to point out.

 

And yes I've also steered trad boats which will track arrow-straight with no force on the tiller where standing as you describe is the best thing to do.

 

Not everybody is the same you -- or me... 😉

Edited June 1, 2023 by IanD

[nb Innisfree]

OK here goes, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the most effective safety device would be for morse controls to be spring biased to neutral when reverse is selected, that is it must be held in reverse against a spring, when the handle is released it will return to neutral, superior to kill switches etc as it requires no precautions by the steerer.

 

Until it's adopted people will continue to be violently injured or killed. 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, nb Innisfree said:

OK here goes, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the most effective safety device would be for morse controls to be spring biased to neutral when reverse is selected, that is it must be held in reverse against a spring, when the handle is released it will return to neutral, superior to kill switches etc as it requires no precautions by the steerer.

 

Until it's adopted people will continue to be violently injured or killed. 

A very good idea, the downside is that it might make reversing any distance more difficult -- but this seems a small price to pay if it saves lives, as it undoubtedly would.

[Midnight]

9 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

Can I ask what the recommended procedure is, and whether it varies in any way for a singlehander? 

I've not really given any thought to how I would respond to getting stuck in a lock (other than to adjust the paddles), and as a card-carrying klutz, I would rather not rely on my instinctive reactions, if the time ever comes. 

 

 

The short pounds on the Huddersfield Narrow can often be low. The first warning when going up is very leaky tail gates. Essential to check the level in the lock when full. If it's down check to see if there's water in the pound after the next lock then take the boat slowly out. I usually pull it with the centre rope or a fender rope. If it scrapes the cell get back into the lock and go up and let water down. You may find you need to go up a few locks. 

[booke23]

4 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

OK here goes, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the most effective safety device would be for morse controls to be spring biased to neutral when reverse is selected, that is it must be held in reverse against a spring, when the handle is released it will return to neutral, superior to kill switches etc as it requires no precautions by the steerer.

 

Until it's adopted people will continue to be violently injured or killed. 

 

This is actually a very good idea, as kill cords rely on the user remembering to connect it, which won't be assured if you're hopping on and off the boat. 

 

Perhaps a bypass device (like the neutral button) could be fitted for the odd occasion where long distance reversing is required. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, booke23 said:

 

This is actually a very good idea, as kill cords rely on the user remembering to connect it, which won't be assured if you're hopping on and off the boat. 

 

Perhaps a bypass device (like the neutral button) could be fitted for the odd occasion where long distance reversing is required. 

 

 

 

But the engine will not start if the kill cord is not connected.

[nb Innisfree]

14 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

This is actually a very good idea, as kill cords rely on the user remembering to connect it, which won't be assured if you're hopping on and off the boat. 

 

Perhaps a bypass device (like the neutral button) could be fitted for the odd occasion where long distance reversing is required. 

 

 

No override button, it will be abused, 

Edited June 1, 2023 by nb Innisfree
Spelling.

[booke23]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But the engine will not start if the kill cord is not connected.

 

They do if you leave it connected to the control panel and disconnect it from your wrist or waist!

[nb Innisfree]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But the engine will not start if the kill cord is not connected.

True but impractical to keep restarting

With kill cords if engine is full astern it can kill before it stops

Edited June 1, 2023 by nb Innisfree

[Puffling]

26 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

OK here goes, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the most effective safety device would be for morse controls to be spring biased to neutral when reverse is selected, that is it must be held in reverse against a spring, when the handle is released it will return to neutral, superior to kill switches etc as it requires no precautions by the steerer.

 

Until it's adopted people will continue to be violently injured or killed. 

I'd support that feature, both from a safety point of view and to help numpties like me who might hop off at a mooring accidentally leaving reverse selected.

 

Only done it a couple of times, most recently at Stoke top lock. I'd drained the chamber from the lock before (going up) and opened the gates. Arriving to find some helpful volunteer litter pickers had closed the gates in my absence and allowed another boater coming down to commence filling the chamber. Outrage clouded my sense of procedure and I quickly hit reverse to avoid hitting the now closed gates (you will remember the lock gates themselves are not visible fully until completing the turn), ran the centre line around a bollard without any knot and walked over to remonstrate with said pickers (who had also purloined my windlass, which I'd left on the balance beam to indicate a boater was around).

Long story short: I arrived back to find the boat with two inches of rope left on the bollard, happily reversing itself into the side arm.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Puffling

[Tonka]

I have reported this post to hopefully get it locked as none of you were there apart from @churchward. Your speculation and bickering is probably not helping the family of the bereaved and will not be helping Churchward 

[booke23]

17 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

No override button, it will be abused, 

 

It would have to be a two handed interlock so its a faff to use....like press a button and pull the lever out, and that auto resets when you go back to neutral. 

1 minute ago, Tonka said:

I have reported this post to hopefully get it locked as none of you were there apart from @churchward. Your speculation and bickering is probably not helping the family of the bereaved and will not be helping Churchward 

 

I see no bickering, only some very good and pertinent debate on narrowboat safety which is to the benefit of all of us. 

[nb Innisfree]

 

4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I have reported this post to hopefully get it locked as none of you were there apart from @churchward. Your speculation and bickering is probably not helping the family of the bereaved and will not be helping Churchward 

But it may bring attention to a regular occurrence and might help to save lives in the future

Edited June 1, 2023 by nb Innisfree

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I have reported this post to hopefully get it locked as none of you were there apart from @churchward. Your speculation and bickering is probably not helping the family of the bereaved and will not be helping Churchward 

 

Apart from the bickering -- hopefully stopped now -- there has been quite a lot of genuine discussion about boat safety on the canals, some of which may well be new to some people and help them boat more safely.

 

That seems to me like a good reason to keep the thread open, not close it down.

 

Or if this is distressing to Churchward, move the safety-related posts to another thread.

[churchward]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Apart from the bickering -- hopefully stopped now -- there has been quite a lot of genuine discussion about boat safety on the canals, some of which may well be new to some people and help them boat more safely.

 

That seems to me like a good reason to keep the thread open, not close it down.

 

Or if this is distressing to Churchward, move the safety-related posts to another thread.

I do not have an issue with discussing boat safety in a general sense, it could be of value to any of us.

Edited June 1, 2023 by churchward

[nb Innisfree]

6 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

It would have to be a two handed interlock so its a faff to use....like press a button and pull the lever out, and that auto resets when you go back to neutral. 

 

If it is overridden then what's to stop the steerer falling off the stern and into a turning prop? Better a faff than a death. 

[magnetman]

2 hours ago, Tonka said:

But when did the requirement come in.

In the 90s sometime. 

 

My 1992 Honda BF2 had a button to kill the ignition. My 1996 Honda BF2 has a kill cord fitting. 

 

The manufacturer would only have fitted this if it was a requirement. 

 

So I think around 1994 or something. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

In the 90s sometime. 

 

My 1992 Honda BF2 had a button to kill the ignition. My 1996 Honda BF2 has a kill cord fitting. 

 

The manufacturer would only have fitted this if it was a requirement. 

 

So I think around 1994 or something. 

 

My '70s Johnson 25, and my early' 80's Yamaha 50 both had kill-cords.

 

Also, neither could be started whilst in gear.