Heating on a Liveaboard

[Michael Siggers]

Hi

 

Hope everyone is well.

 

Joined the Forum about a week ago as I'm in the process of buying a second hand boat as a liveaboard. I will be continuing to work as the job I do and modern technology means that this will be possible.

 

I have found this forum to be extremely informative and helpful in answering my queries just by searching through the topics.

 

Anyway, the boat I am in the process of buying has a Multifuel stove which also runs the central heating through a gravity fed system, (hopefully the correct terminology), and the hot water for the taps and shower is provided by the gas bottles.

 

All the posts I have read seem to indicate that the multifuel stove is ideal for the heating, as I was also pondering the possibility of installing a Webasto as well, so the heating can be programmed to turn off and on. The reason for this is that, although I work from home, on the days I have to go to (dull) meetings, I'm worried about the boat being cold when I return at the end of the day in the depths of winter, especially when it's well below 0C as I'm concerned about freezing pipes etc. As far as I understand, the central heating system does have antifreeze in, but what about the normal water pipes and water tank?

 

I do realise that I'm probably asking a stupid question, but any help and comments would be appreciated.

 

Many thanks

 

Mike

[Tony Brooks]

20 minutes ago, Michael Siggers said:

Hi

 

Hope everyone is well.

 

Joined the Forum about a week ago as I'm in the process of buying a second hand boat as a liveaboard. I will be continuing to work as the job I do and modern technology means that this will be possible.

 

I have found this forum to be extremely informative and helpful in answering my queries just by searching through the topics.

 

Anyway, the boat I am in the process of buying has a Multifuel stove which also runs the central heating through a gravity fed system, (hopefully the correct terminology), and the hot water for the taps and shower is provided by the gas bottles.

 

All the posts I have read seem to indicate that the multifuel stove is ideal for the heating, as I was also pondering the possibility of installing a Webasto as well, so the heating can be programmed to turn off and on. The reason for this is that, although I work from home, on the days I have to go to (dull) meetings, I'm worried about the boat being cold when I return at the end of the day in the depths of winter, especially when it's well below 0C as I'm concerned about freezing pipes etc. As far as I understand, the central heating system does have antifreeze in, but what about the normal water pipes and water tank?

 

I do realise that I'm probably asking a stupid question, but any help and comments would be appreciated.

 

Many thanks

 

Mike

 

No question is stupid if you don't know the answer.

 

 

Freezing over just one day without heating is unlikely, especially as the canal/river/marina water a very few inches down will be above freeing point, with that heat being transmitted through the hull into the boat.

 

Once you get the hang of a multi-fuel stove, it will stay in overnight so it will also stay in over the day once you prepare it well.

 

It is a different story if you are leaving it in winter for several days and a cold snap hits, but I left my boat with no special prep over many winters without frost damage. This is especially true if it has plastic plumbing. I did however drain the tank so if a pipe did split or a fitting pop off it would not flood the boat and left all the taps open. It is also a good idea to ensure the shower mixer is drained.

 

Now this gas water heating. Please, can you give us an idea about what this is. It might be a gas boiler or it might be an instant gas water heater. I suspect the latter and if leaving the boat for a long period in winter its diaphragm chamber needs to be drained.

 

How are the batteries charged. Webasto heaters are not exactly frugal users of electricity, and working from the boat suggests a fairly high electricity consumption. Unless you are in a marina with a shoreline for mains electricity, I would suggest keeping the batteries charged will be far more of a problem than coming home to a cold boat or pipes freezing.

 

Please study this and ask about anything you do not understand.

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[MtB]

I agree with Tony above. 

 

If you are planning to be out on the cut living off grid, then generating enough electricity will challenge you far more than avoiding frost damage.

 

If on the other hand you are planning to moor in a marina with a shoreline 230Vac hook-up, then no problem at all. 

 

The two styles of living aboard could not be more different. Which are you planning? 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

I agree with Tony above. 

 

If you are planning to be out on the cut living off grid, then generating enough electricity will challenge you far more than avoiding frost damage.

 

If on the other hand you are planning to moor in a marina with a shoreline 230Vac hook-up, then no problem at all. 

 

The two styles of living aboard could not be more different. Which are you planning? 

 

 

 

And when on a shoreline there is the option of an electric heater.

[Michael Siggers]

Thank you @Tony Brooks

 

Much appreciated.

 

In terms if the water heating, I need to get more information on that. I'm visiting the boat tomorrow for a more in depth look so will gather as much information as possible.

 

I will be moored in a Marina under a Residential Mooring so will have Shoreline Power, but will be out on it going to various places, for breaks from work, effectively 'holidays', (although I always end up doing some work while I'm away). There is Solar on the boat too, (three adjustable panels), although the exact rating/capacity I will find out tomorrow.

 

I've also read that the Webasto units can be noisy and connecting them to run alongside a stove fed heating system has its potential problems. In an ideal world, assuming I can get the hang of it, it seems like the stove alone is the better option.

 

Mike

[Tony Brooks]

I suggest that you use a mains electric oil filled radiator to tube heaters with a thermostat to keep the chill off the boat when you are in the marina and go to work and if needed a fan heater to give a fast warm up when you can keep an eye on it.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[Michael Siggers]

Luckily I already have a couple of Mains fed oil filled heaters, one with a timer built in.

 

Mike

[Jen-in-Wellies]

For a while, I had a long commute and was away from the boat 12 to 14 hours a day. In winter, just kept the stove ticking over, which was enough to keep it cozy when returning. When the outside  temperature dropped to -15C this wasn't effective as that needed the stove running pretty much full power to maintain a comfortable temperature inside, but that is a rare situation. Not yet found the need to install diesel back up heating. Where it can come in handy is in Spring and Autumn, when an hour or two of heat early morning and in the evening can take the chill off, without the faff of lighting the stove, then the boat getting too hot. I just put on an extra jumper!

[Michael Siggers]

Thank you @Jen-in-Wellies

 

All sounds like I should be OK with the Stove then, which also keeps the heating quite simple. I guess less to go wrong.

 

Mike

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, Michael Siggers said:

Luckily I already have a couple of Mains fed oil filled heaters, one with a timer built in.

 

Mike

 

It's not so much the timer that's useful on these oil filled rads, it's the thermostat, assuming yours have them. 

 

I used an oil filled rad for years when I went away, leaving it set to about 5C on the lowest power setting. So the rad only switches on when the temperature drops saving you energy.

 

I would still isolate my water tank, switch the pump off and open a couple of taps to release the pressure in the system. That will reduce the chance of a frozen pipe bursting in case shore power trips on your mooring bollard, or someone messes with it while you're away. 

 

For that reason, the best type of oil filled rads are the type with a simple "analoge" interface rather than digital. If shore power cuts out in the marina for a few minutes which can happen, a digitally controlled heater won't switch back on when the power returns.

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by blackrose

[Michael Siggers]

Hi @blackrose

 

The ones I have have the Thermostat and a mechanical old style timer, the ones where you push the pins in or out to set the times.

 

But you're right, when I've used them I've just ignored the timer and set the thermostat to the required level.

 

Mike

[GUMPY]

The Hobbit stove on Loddon stayed in for 12hrs easily and kept the boat warm.

It used to be lit in October and go out in March when we lived on board as did the stoves on previous boats, the secret is getting the right fuel.

Personally I don't like back boilers as have not had much success with them over the years.  

Loddon also has a diesel heater as well which can be fired remotely via txt message.

Latterly in winter, when we no longer lived aboard, we could leave home fire the heating up and arrive at a warm boat.

With the price of electricity in marinas you wont want to be using electric heaters except in an emergency.

 

 

One secret in the winter is not to let the boat get cold as if you do you will get condensation.

[rusty69]

And in contrast to the above, a well set up gravity back boiler supporting a number of radiators will produce constant heat on a full load of fuel for 24 hours or more given the right stove and fuel and adequate insulation. 

[blackrose]

31 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

 

With the price of electricity in marinas you wont want to be using electric heaters except in an emergency.

 

This is true. I stopped using my oil filled rad last autumn. When I go away in winter I just make sure the gas water heater is drained and taps are open.

Edited May 29, 2023 by blackrose

[Peanut]

Don't forget an electric blanket, the cheapest heating you will get. Helps to keep the bedding fresh too.

[LadyG]

47 minutes ago, Peanut said:

Don't forget an electric blanket, the cheapest heating you will get. Helps to keep the bedding fresh too.

I had an electric overblanket when I lived in a house, better than underblanket, might be something similar designed for using when working at a laptop. 

You won't know how effective the heating is till you get it working fully, I always have premium ovals, logs and kindling delivered every month, £212 pcm. Plus I have Webasto for other cooler days, as now. I think it's a toss up diesel system versus the oil filled rads as cost of installing Webasto with rads will buy a lot of electricity. You will be using batteries with Webasto of course so that will use shorepower.

Edited May 30, 2023 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Peanut said:

Don't forget an electric blanket, the cheapest heating you will get. Helps to keep the bedding fresh too.

 

Only when you are on shorepower.

[Mad Harold]

16 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

When the outside  temperature dropped to -15C this wasn't effective as that needed the stove running pretty much full power to maintain a comfortable temperature inside, but that is a rare situation. 

Minus 15! I once experienced that one February night many years ago.Not in a boat, but in a borrowed caravan on Crosland Moor Airfield Huddersfield (long story).

The chemical toilet froze solid, and the quilt on the bed froze to the wall, and because of the frozen condensation inside, I had to attack the door opening with a knife to be able to get out!

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

18 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

For a while, I had a long commute and was away from the boat 12 to 14 hours a day. In winter, just kept the stove ticking over, which was enough to keep it cozy when returning. When the outside  temperature dropped to -15C this wasn't effective as that needed the stove running pretty much full power to maintain a comfortable temperature inside, but that is a rare situation. 

 At -15* most of the Newbie Snowflakes would be jumping into their cars and going back to Mum & Dads till the Summer❄️❄️❄️

Edited May 30, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[GUMPY]

There was one January back in the 90's when the daytime temperatures didn't go above freezing and the cut was solid ice  8 inches thick. It froze on Boxing day and thawed on Feb 1st.  I had to put a hot coal from the stove on the water filler to thaw it out. Water points were frozen for a month and I had to get my water from the pub in 5gall containers.

 

Kids today don't know what it was like. Cue person living on cut in 63 or 47 to tell us we are soft🤔😉

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

3 hours ago, GUMPY said:

There was one January back in the 90's when the daytime temperatures didn't go above freezing and the cut was solid ice  8 inches thick. It froze on Boxing day and thawed on Feb 1st.  I had to put a hot coal from the stove on the water filler to thaw it out. Water points were frozen for a month and I had to get my water from the pub in 5gall containers.

 

Kids today don't know what it was like. Cue person living on cut in 63 or 47 to tell us we are soft🤔😉

 

Luxury.

[LadyG]

21 hours ago, GUMPY said:

The Hobbit stove on Loddon stayed in for 12hrs easily and kept the boat warm.

It used to be lit in October and go out in March when we lived on board as did the stoves on previous boats, the secret is getting the right fuel.

Personally I don't like back boilers as have not had much success with them over the years.  

Loddon also has a diesel heater as well which can be fired remotely via txt message.

Latterly in winter, when we no longer lived aboard, we could leave home fire the heating up and arrive at a warm boat.

With the price of electricity in marinas you wont want to be using electric heaters except in an emergency.

 

 

One secret in the winter is not to let the boat get cold as if you do you will get condensation.

I do t know the cost of electricity from marina power , but the whole thing depends on income v cost.

If one is strapped for cash a residential mooring would be out of reach .

If one dislikes marina living, the cost would be irrelevant as there has to be a better solution.

If you don't like boats then it would not be a good idea to buy one 

On 29/05/2023 at 16:55, Michael Siggers said:

Thank you @Tony Brooks

 

Much appreciated.

 

In terms if the water heating, I need to get more information on that. I'm visiting the boat tomorrow for a more in depth look so will gather as much information as possible.

 

I will be moored in a Marina under a Residential Mooring so will have Shoreline Power, but will be out on it going to various places, for breaks from work, effectively 'holidays', (although I always end up doing some work while I'm away). There is Solar on the boat too, (three adjustable panels), although the exact rating/capacity I will find out tomorrow.

 

I've also read that the Webasto units can be noisy and connecting them to run alongside a stove fed heating system has its potential problems. In an ideal world, assuming I can get the hang of it, it seems like the stove alone is the better option.

 

Mike

I think you might be overthinking stuff. Have a look, have a chat. 

What is the main reason to consider living on a boat?

Do you have unlimited cash reserves?

Solid fuel stoves are the heart of a narrow boat for a live aboard, if you don't want to clean the thing and keep it working, you will need to stay in the marina and pretend you are living in a flat.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by LadyG

[Michael Siggers]

Thank you for all the feedback and comments.

 

Really helpful.

 

Paid another visit to the boat this morning and went through everything, having a thorough look round, getting details of the electrics and opening every cupboard and hatch possible, also speaking with some of the other owners there.

 

So, now happy with the stove and heating system and I think you're right @LadyG, I've been overthinking it. I will be working so will have a regular income. The heating comprises of 2 radiators and a towel radiator in the Bathroom.

 

The hot water is actually fed from a Calorifier, heated by the engine and also an Immersion heater which can be turned on while Cruising and on Shoreline. The calorifier seemed to be quite large, along with an expansion tank. Tried to find the capacity in the boats documenting but could not lay my hands on it quickly. The documentation was extremely detailed, well organised and containing a lot of information. Really thick ring binder. 

 

The water tank is stainless steel. The toilet is a Pump Out Toilet. Could not check the capacity of the water tank, but my understanding is that it is quite a large one as the Gas bottles are stored in the stern, so do not take up space in the bow meaning the water tank is larger. Gas bottles are stored under one of the seats in the semi trad stern.

 

The 3 No adjustable solar Panels are trickle charging the batteries with an indicator showing that today when I looked. The electrical system seemed to be very well setup. I took loads of photos but forgot to photograph the electrical cupboard, which was very well organised and laid out very neatly with very professional wiring.

 

Engine bay was bone dry and again very tidy with a clean engine. Did not get a chance to run it but this is going to be checked during the survey. I will proably be getting it serviced before I take the keys anyway, along with re-blacking assuming the survey is ok.

 

I was surprised to find a Washing Machine on board although this, if used, will only be when on Shoreline.

 

There is also an alarming amount storage with what I consider some ingenious solutions. The Galley actually has more storage than my Kitchen at home. A fold out ironing board from a drawer and two hidden cupboards which pull out with more worktop.

 

Smoke detectors in place and a CO detector. All LED lighting apart from some feature lighting. Speakers in ceiling connected to Car Stereo. (Have to make sure it's DAB so I can listen to Absolute 80s 😃😃😃😃).

 

I won't be Constant Cruising and will be based in the Marina, taking the boat out at weekends, (ie when not working), and longer periods in the spring/summer/late summer months, for breaks from from work and to explore and see new places etc. Maybe staying somewhere else for a longer period. So, while it will not be travelling constantly, it will be getting used and moving when possible. The Residential Mooring will be a Home Base.

 

Sound odd to say, but I immediately felt at home on her and have now paid a deposit and organised the survey.

 

Mike

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Michael Siggers said:

Sound odd to say, but I immediately felt at home on her and have now paid a deposit and organised the survey.

 

Not odd at all. I think you are very lucky, the right boat has found you.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

4 hours ago, Michael Siggers said:

Thank you for all the feedback and comments.

 

Really helpful.

 

Paid another visit to the boat this morning and went through everything, having a thorough look round, getting details of the electrics and opening every cupboard and hatch possible, also speaking with some of the other owners there.

 

So, now happy with the stove and heating system and I think you're right @LadyG, I've been overthinking it. I will be working so will have a regular income. The heating comprises of 2 radiators and a towel radiator in the Bathroom.

 

The hot water is actually fed from a Calorifier, heated by the engine and also an Immersion heater which can be turned on while Cruising and on Shoreline. The calorifier seemed to be quite large, along with an expansion tank. Tried to find the capacity in the boats documenting but could not lay my hands on it quickly. The documentation was extremely detailed, well organised and containing a lot of information. Really thick ring binder. 

 

The water tank is stainless steel. The toilet is a Pump Out Toilet. Could not check the capacity of the water tank, but my understanding is that it is quite a large one as the Gas bottles are stored in the stern, so do not take up space in the bow meaning the water tank is larger. Gas bottles are stored under one of the seats in the semi trad stern.

 

The 3 No adjustable solar Panels are trickle charging the batteries with an indicator showing that today when I looked. The electrical system seemed to be very well setup. I took loads of photos but forgot to photograph the electrical cupboard, which was very well organised and laid out very neatly with very professional wiring.

 

Engine bay was bone dry and again very tidy with a clean engine. Did not get a chance to run it but this is going to be checked during the survey. I will proably be getting it serviced before I take the keys anyway, along with re-blacking assuming the survey is ok.

 

I was surprised to find a Washing Machine on board although this, if used, will only be when on Shoreline.

 

There is also an alarming amount storage with what I consider some ingenious solutions. The Galley actually has more storage than my Kitchen at home. A fold out ironing board from a drawer and two hidden cupboards which pull out with more worktop.

 

Smoke detectors in place and a CO detector. All LED lighting apart from some feature lighting. Speakers in ceiling connected to Car Stereo. (Have to make sure it's DAB so I can listen to Absolute 80s 😃😃😃😃).

 

I won't be Constant Cruising and will be based in the Marina, taking the boat out at weekends, (ie when not working), and longer periods in the spring/summer/late summer months, for breaks from from work and to explore and see new places etc. Maybe staying somewhere else for a longer period. So, while it will not be travelling constantly, it will be getting used and moving when possible. The Residential Mooring will be a Home Base.

 

Sound odd to say, but I immediately felt at home on her and have now paid a deposit and organised the survey.

 

Mike

Where are you mooring as residential are rare if the area you are thinking is the same as your profile and it’s not that easy to pop out for the weekend.