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Southam to Leeds, a viable journey?


Mark R

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Maybe at this point I should mention I have no experience of rivers and have only done a helmsman course so it’d be a baptism of fire.

 

Would I be right in thinking that this would be a stupid journey for me to take?

 

Just as an add on this is the trip that Canal Plan comes up with (thanks Howard)

 

This is a trip of 204 miles, 2 furlongs and 194 locks from Calcutt Bottom Lock No 3 to Shipley - Gallows Bridge Visitor Moorings.

This will take 117 hours and 36 minutes which is 13 days, 36 minutes at 9 hours per day.

From Calcutt Bottom Lock No 3 travel south on the Grand Union Canal (Warwick and Napton Canal) for 5½ furlongs and 2 locks to Napton Junction, then travel northeast on the Grand Union Canal (Oxford Canal Section) for 5 miles to Braunston Turn, then travel northwest on the Oxford Canal (Northern Section - Main Line) for 22 miles, 6½ furlongs and 4 locks to Hawkesbury Junction, then travel northwest on the Coventry Canal (Main Line - Hawkesbury to Fazeley) for 21 miles, 4 furlongs and 13 locks to Fazeley Junction, then travel northwest on the Birmingham Canal Navigations (Birmingham and Fazeley Canal - along route of Coventry Canal) for 5 miles, 4 furlongs to Whittington Brook, then travel northwest on the Coventry Canal (Detached Portion) for 5 miles, 4 furlongs to Fradley Junction, then travel northwest on the Trent and Mersey Canal (Main Line - Fradley to Great Haywood) for 12 miles, 1¾ furlongs and 5 locks to Great Haywood Junction, then travel northwest on the Trent and Mersey Canal (Main Line - Great Haywood to Etruria) for 19 miles and 18 locks to Etruria Junction, then travel northwest on the Trent and Mersey Canal (Main Line - Etruria to Hardings Wood) for 5 miles, 4¾ furlongs to Hardings Wood Junction, then travel north on the Trent and Mersey Canal (Hall Green Branch) for 1 mile, 4 furlongs and 1 lock to Hall Green Stop Lock, then travel north on the Macclesfield Canal for 26 miles, ¾ furlongs and 12 locks to Marple Junction, then travel north on the Peak Forest Canal (Lower) for 8 miles, ¾ furlongs and 16 locks to Dukinfield Junction, then travel northeast on the Ashton Canal for 4 furlongs to Ashton-under-Lyne Junction, then travel northeast on the Huddersfield Narrow Canal for 23 miles, 7¼ furlongs and 74 locks to Aspley Basin (Huddersfield), then travel northeast on the Huddersfield Broad Canal for 3 miles, 4 furlongs and 9 locks to Cooper Bridge Junction, then travel east on the Calder and Hebble Navigation (Main Line) for 12 miles, 6½ furlongs and 13 locks to Fall Ing Junction, then travel northeast on the Aire and Calder Navigation (Wakefield Section) for 7 miles, 4 furlongs and 4 locks to Castleford Junction, then travel northwest on the Aire and Calder Navigation (Main Line - Castleford to Leeds) for 10 miles and 5 locks to Leeds Bridge, then travel west on the Leeds and Liverpool Canal (Main Line - Wigan to Leeds) for 12 miles, 4¼ furlongs and 18 locks to Shipley - Gallows Bridge Visitor Moorings.

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I would encourage you not to give up. The first part of the trip is on tame canals and a good place to learn.  You don't say if you are single handed. At least for a first trip I would encourage you to have crew, as single  handing does add complications.

 

For the Trent, you have made a major step in asking for advice. The foolhardy thing is to just go without any prior planning.  There is lots of advice and support  available on the Trentlink group (earlier link and the associated Facebook page) . That page can also be used to arrange buddying - it's a good idea to go with another boat - and there are locals who may be able to crew for you for a pint and a minicab fare. Also, some boatmovers will offer paid support. For example Conor has just advertised this service

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0mmrBo4oNDLD12N19HfDPBrz6xk5RxGHJrizePT6DheBL5Bkjy2ZwTBGHKLSFDTxdl&id=100063551203425

 

Finally  there is now (hurrah) some commercial traffic on the NE waterways up to Leeds.  Just keep an eye out. Another reason for getting VHF, which is not that expensive. 

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1 hour ago, Mark R said:

Maybe at this point I should mention I have no experience of rivers and have only done a helmsman course so it’d be a baptism of fire.

 

Would I be right in thinking that this would be a stupid journey for me to take?

It is a step up from canals by a long way. It needs to be treated with respect. Many people do this in narrowboats with no problem. However some get in to a lot of trouble and that can happen very quickly.

  • The engine must be reliable running long hours at high power. The Trent regularly shows up cooling problems that just don't appear on boats that have spent years happily chugging up and down canals and smaller rivers. This is especially the case going upstream, or against the tide.
  • You need a decent sized anchor, chain and line, attached to a strong point on the boat, ready to deploy, should the engine fail. See many many arguments on CWDF concerning the best anchor type, size, chain length, size etc. All based on little practical experience setting anchors on rivers from narrowboats.
  • You need to either know how to time trips with regard to tides, or follow the advice from the lock keepers at the tidal locks, Cromwell, Torksey and Keadby.
  • You need to know where the navigation hazards are. Some of these are not obvious. The Sissons charts, already mentioned, give these.
  • Don't cut corners on rivers. They tend to be shallow here. The deep water tends to be on the outside of the bend. Risks running aground. If you do this on a falling tide, you could end up stuck till the next high tide and there is a risk of your boat flooding and sinking as the next tide comes in, if your boat is at an angle before it floats. An exception is at Marton Mill, where the narrow navigable channel cuts through a shallow rock shelf and doesn't follow the outside. See the Sissons charts.
  • Below Gainsborough, navigation goes from CaRT to ABP. If you aren't following their rules on crew numbers (>=2), VHF, nav lights and so on, then you could run in to problems, legal and insurance, if there is any incident.
  • Speaking of insurance, most inland policies cover tidal river trips needed to go between inland waterways, like the Trent, but double check yours does.
  • There is the Aegir, the Trent version of the Severn Bore, which occurs on occasion when tide, wind etc come right. Not something you want to meet.
  • You need to know how to enter a lock at right angles to the current to get in to Keadby successfully.
  • Lifejackets for all crew. If you fall in without one, your survival chances are not certain at all.

I'm not saying don't do it, but you need to be prepared. Lots of advice on here. Worth seeing if some one who knows the river can join you for the trip.

Jen

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2 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I would encourage you not to give up. The first part of the trip is on tame canals and a good place to learn.  You don't say if you are single handed. At least for a first trip I would encourage you to have crew, as single  handing does add complications.

 

For the Trent, you have made a major step in asking for advice. The foolhardy thing is to just go without any prior planning.  There is lots of advice and support  available on the Trentlink group (earlier link and the associated Facebook page) . That page can also be used to arrange buddying - it's a good idea to go with another boat - and there are locals who may be able to crew for you for a pint and a minicab fare. Also, some boatmovers will offer paid support. For example Conor has just advertised this service

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0mmrBo4oNDLD12N19HfDPBrz6xk5RxGHJrizePT6DheBL5Bkjy2ZwTBGHKLSFDTxdl&id=100063551203425

 

Finally  there is now (hurrah) some commercial traffic on the NE waterways up to Leeds.  Just keep an eye out. Another reason for getting VHF, which is not that expensive. 

 

Thanks SG, I appreciate your input. I would be single handed as I'd be picking up a boat. I could probably get assistance for the harder sctions of the journey but in reality they would be equally as inexperienced with me.

 

Thanks for the link, I'd certainly take advantage of that!

 

 

Again thanks Jen,

 

The information you give is invaluable. I need to think very carefully about this. For example, would I even be able to read a chart? I'm assuming that my journey listed above my circumnavigate some of these issues.

 

Mark

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27 minutes ago, Mark R said:

 

Thanks SG, I appreciate your input. I would be single handed as I'd be picking up a boat. I could probably get assistance for the harder sctions of the journey but in reality they would be equally as inexperienced with me.

 

Thanks for the link, I'd certainly take advantage of that!

 

 

Again thanks Jen,

 

The information you give is invaluable. I need to think very carefully about this. For example, would I even be able to read a chart? I'm assuming that my journey listed above my circumnavigate some of these issues.

 

Mark


Here's a sample from the standard Trent chart (not a normal Admiralty style chart).  Pretty easy to follow, and especially if you buy it before you arrive at Cromwell lock (where the tidal section starts).

It is handy to have one person who is reading the chart and giving you advance warning of what to do next, enabling you to keep your head up and spot eg any floating rubbish, or ducks that appear to be standing up (never a good sign!).  Good luck!

 

 

DSC_2541_1.JPG

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31 minutes ago, Mark R said:

 

Again thanks Jen,

 

The information you give is invaluable. I need to think very carefully about this. For example, would I even be able to read a chart? I'm assuming that my journey listed above my circumnavigate some of these issues.

 

Mark

The Sissons charts are dead easy to follow. The aren't like a sea chart, but a google earth style view of sections of river, with the safe line drawn on, along with photos of bridges and descriptions to flesh it all out. Having it in front of you as you steer, it helps you pick the optimum route, bridge arch and so on.

Edit: Post clash with @Scholar Gypsy again!

2 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

or ducks that appear to be standing up (never a good sign!).

This is really unnerving when you see it in the middle of a river!

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2 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The Sissons charts are dead easy to follow. The aren't like a sea chart, but a google earth style view of sections of river, with the safe line drawn on, along with photos of bridges and descriptions to flesh it all out. Having it in front of you as you steer, it helps you pick the optimum route, bridge arch and so on.

Edit: Post clash with @Scholar Gypsy again!


This is a displacement activity for what I should be doing now, which is cleaning the contacts on my wiring loom. Briefly yesterday my engine refused to stop. It's working OK now, but I should give the connectors a clean.  Signing off for an hour now!

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A further observation. Going upstream from Keadby you are on a rising tide for nearly all the way, especially if you break the journey. If you did run aground there will be a good chance the rising tide will lift you off. Going downstream from Cromwell I think you would be on a falling tide for a lot of the journey so running aground could have you stuck for 12 hours or so before the next tide lifts you off - and if you go aground on a high spring tide (OP that is a regular very high tide, not just in the spring) you might be stuck for nearly a month unless you can get a powerful tow off. This is why those charts are probably vital, and I would be looking at tide tables to ensure I was doing the journey when the spring tides are starting to build - subject to local advice.

 

As I said, I have only done this journey once and it was upstream, so happy to be told this is incorrect by a local who reallly knows.

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I would support the view that a VHF is essential on the tidal Trent below Gainsborough, and very useful on the non tidal river between Cromwell and Holme Lock. Whether you have an operator's certificate is up to you. 

As said,  life jackets are essential .

 

I have travelled the tidal Trent from Cromwell down to the Humber and the return trip once in most years since 2008 and shorter tidal trips in addition. Even now we have the chart open as a reminder of the next hazard. The  hardest part from the perspective of hazards like sunken islands  is Cromwell to Torksey although entering Keadby perhaps the greatest challenge of the journey.  

 

I doubt very much that you would see any ships moving above Keadby bridge and I doubt you will be arriving at Keadby in a narrowboat at high tide  when any ships would be most likely to move although others may correct me if I am wrong.

 

You do need to understand the tides on the Trent below  Cromwell but the lock keepers should help you with this .

The tidal locks eg Cromwell and Keadby need to be booked 48hrs in advance otherwise they may not be manned.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Scholar Gypsy said:


This is a displacement activity for what I should be doing now, which is cleaning the contacts on my wiring loom. Briefly yesterday my engine refused to stop. It's working OK now, but I should give the connectors a clean.  Signing off for an hour now!

Problem fixed. I then discovered the bilge pump wasn't working, tracked that down to the fuse holder on the negative return. Aren't boats fun

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3 hours ago, Mark R said:

 

Just as an add on this is the trip that Canal Plan comes up with (thanks Howard)

 

This is a trip of 204 miles, 2 furlongs and 194 locks from Calcutt Bottom Lock No 3 to Shipley - Gallows Bridge Visitor Moorings.

This will take 117 hours and 36 minutes which is 13 days, 36 minutes at 9 hours per day.

From Calcutt Bottom Lock No 3 travel south on the Grand Union Canal (Warwick and Napton Canal) for 5½ furlongs and 2 locks to Napton Junction, then travel northeast on the Grand Union Canal (Oxford Canal Section) for 5 miles to Braunston Turn, then travel northwest on the Oxford Canal (Northern Section - Main Line) for 22 miles, 6½ furlongs and 4 locks to Hawkesbury Junction, then travel northwest on the Coventry Canal (Main Line - Hawkesbury to Fazeley) for 21 miles, 4 furlongs and 13 locks to Fazeley Junction, then travel northwest on the Birmingham Canal Navigations (Birmingham and Fazeley Canal - along route of Coventry Canal) for 5 miles, 4 furlongs to Whittington Brook, then travel northwest on the Coventry Canal (Detached Portion) for 5 miles, 4 furlongs to Fradley Junction, then travel northwest on the Trent and Mersey Canal (Main Line - Fradley to Great Haywood) for 12 miles, 1¾ furlongs and 5 locks to Great Haywood Junction, then travel northwest on the Trent and Mersey Canal (Main Line - Great Haywood to Etruria) for 19 miles and 18 locks to Etruria Junction, then travel northwest on the Trent and Mersey Canal (Main Line - Etruria to Hardings Wood) for 5 miles, 4¾ furlongs to Hardings Wood Junction, then travel north on the Trent and Mersey Canal (Hall Green Branch) for 1 mile, 4 furlongs and 1 lock to Hall Green Stop Lock, then travel north on the Macclesfield Canal for 26 miles, ¾ furlongs and 12 locks to Marple Junction, then travel north on the Peak Forest Canal (Lower) for 8 miles, ¾ furlongs and 16 locks to Dukinfield Junction, then travel northeast on the Ashton Canal for 4 furlongs to Ashton-under-Lyne Junction, then travel northeast on the Huddersfield Narrow Canal for 23 miles, 7¼ furlongs and 74 locks to Aspley Basin (Huddersfield), then travel northeast on the Huddersfield Broad Canal for 3 miles, 4 furlongs and 9 locks to Cooper Bridge Junction, then travel east on the Calder and Hebble Navigation (Main Line) for 12 miles, 6½ furlongs and 13 locks to Fall Ing Junction, then travel northeast on the Aire and Calder Navigation (Wakefield Section) for 7 miles, 4 furlongs and 4 locks to Castleford Junction, then travel northwest on the Aire and Calder Navigation (Main Line - Castleford to Leeds) for 10 miles and 5 locks to Leeds Bridge, then travel west on the Leeds and Liverpool Canal (Main Line - Wigan to Leeds) for 12 miles, 4¼ furlongs and 18 locks to Shipley - Gallows Bridge Visitor Moorings.

That route is not the route via the Trent being discussed - probably because Canalplan's default settings discourage use of tidal rivers.

If the prospect of tidal water puts you off the Trent, then this is a viable alternative route. Note that it takes you along the Huddersfield Narrow Canal, which involves passage through Standedge Tunnel. While this is an experience not to be missed, passage has to be booked in advance, there are only a limited number of passages and there are dimensional restrictions which your boat may or may not meet. Alternatives would be to take the same route to the northwest, then cross the Pennines via the Rochdale or Leeds & Liverpool canals.

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37 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That route is not the route via the Trent being discussed - probably because Canalplan's default settings discourage use of tidal rivers.

If the prospect of tidal water puts you off the Trent, then this is a viable alternative route. Note that it takes you along the Huddersfield Narrow Canal, which involves passage through Standedge Tunnel. While this is an experience not to be missed, passage has to be booked in advance, there are only a limited number of passages and there are dimensional restrictions which your boat may or may not meet. Alternatives would be to take the same route to the northwest, then cross the Pennines via the Rochdale or Leeds & Liverpool canals.

 

The route via the Leeds and Liverpool is longer than via the HNC but with fewer locks, and doesn't have the Standedge restrictions. With my Canalplan speed settings I get this, but this is based on having 4 on board so you'll be slower in locks, which means the L&L route will probably be quicker and certainly less effort for you than the HNC:

 

Via Trent : 237 miles 111 locks 89 hours

Via HNC : 204 miles 194 locks 104 hours

Via L&L : 246 miles 147 locks 107 hours

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1 hour ago, David Mack said:

That route is not the route via the Trent being discussed - probably because Canalplan's default settings discourage use of tidal rivers.

If the prospect of tidal water puts you off the Trent, then this is a viable alternative route. Note that it takes you along the Huddersfield Narrow Canal, which involves passage through Standedge Tunnel. While this is an experience not to be missed, passage has to be booked in advance, there are only a limited number of passages and there are dimensional restrictions which your boat may or may not meet. Alternatives would be to take the same route to the northwest, then cross the Pennines via the Rochdale or Leeds & Liverpool canals.

This route is fine in general for narrowboats (and in fact I'm about to do it in the opposite direction!), with the caveats others have mentioned that if he's doing it in late summer there might be water shortages preventing passage or making it really shallow on Hudds Narrow and Macclesfield. It's also a lot of locks, although he'd probably get help at this time of year at Marple and could book it on the Hudds Narrow.

At 58' he should fit the locks on the Huddersfield Broad, he'll just have to be careful and getting the gates open as a single hander might be annoying...

 

The Trent route is easier if the scale of the Trent (including the non-tidal bit) isn't too intimidating and he trusts the reliability of his engine. At this time of year he might be able to find another boat to travel in convoy with on the Trent, which is a good idea too.

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1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

The Trent route is easier if the scale of the Trent (including the non-tidal bit) isn't too intimidating and he trusts the reliability of his engine. At this time of year he might be able to find another boat to travel in convoy with on the Trent, which is a good idea too.

Convoy with another narrowboat is ideal. On one tidal Trent trip I ended up helping another boat the last few miles to Torksey when their engine overheated. On another trip, the accompanying boat helped me out, when I had to go down the weed hatch mid river to remove a large tree branch that had jammed the rudder solid and prevented steering.

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Done the tidal Trent a few times and a couple of times stopped alongside a coaster at Gainsborough to wait for the tide due to low water. The pilot told us about 2 coasters coming up on the tide  and we met one where he said we would. I believe that nothing comes up to Gainsborough now

Photo667757334461_inner_265-125-808-99-265-659-820-659.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Dav and Pen said:

 I believe that nothing comes up to Gainsborough now

 

I would be interested to know when ships did stop coming up to Gainsborough. I would say nothing has been up there more than gravel barges  since I have been boating on the Trent in 2008. And for a few years now now there are no gravel barges operating (as far as I  know).

 

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23 hours ago, howardang said:

Additionally, ABP also require VHF to be carried which entails a licence for  the equipment and appropriate certification for the  operator,  and a continuous radio  watch maintained. 

 

Howard

 

And single handed is totally verboten.

Does the OP have a 'friend' (crew) ?

 

For the sake of completeness - from defintions “small vessel” means a vessel of less than 12 metres in length".

 

Manning of vessels 11.

(1) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (b) of this Byelaw, the master of a vessel underway, other than a small vessel, shall have on board at least one other person to assist in the navigation thereof.

 

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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6 hours ago, MartynG said:

I would support the view that a VHF is essential on the tidal Trent below Gainsborough, and very useful on the non tidal river between Cromwell and Holme Lock. Whether you have an operator's certificate is up to you. 

As said,  life jackets are essential .

 

I have travelled the tidal Trent from Cromwell down to the Humber and the return trip once in most years since 2008 and shorter tidal trips in addition. Even now we have the chart open as a reminder of the next hazard. The  hardest part from the perspective of hazards like sunken islands  is Cromwell to Torksey although entering Keadby perhaps the greatest challenge of the journey.  

 

I doubt very much that you would see any ships moving above Keadby bridge and I doubt you will be arriving at Keadby in a narrowboat at high tide  when any ships would be most likely to move although others may correct me if I am wrong.

 

You do need to understand the tides on the Trent below  Cromwell but the lock keepers should help you with this .

The tidal locks eg Cromwell and Keadby need to be booked 48hrs in advance otherwise they may not be manned.

 

 

 

 

Just to emphasise what I keep saying, it is an ABP requirement  to carry VHF and to keep at least a listening watch while on passage. It is not just a  "nice to have", and if you are fitted with  a radio it is rather silly not to be properly certificated to operate it  if necessary, not just monitor. The course is not difficult and inexpensive and can be done  within one day. As far as ships moving on the Trent is concerned,  there are not as many as there used to be but occasional  movements can still catch you out, especially between Keadby and Trent Falls,  and there are still the occasional commercial barge movements which, compared to a narrow boat, can also be classed as small ships and care must be taken when meeting them. 

 

The Trent is perfectly OK if suitable care is taken and it is treated with respect,  but both the Trent and the Lower Yorkshire Ouse up to Goole are still places where you need to be extra vigilant, and certainly the boat must be capable in operating safely in a tidal river.

 

Howard

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, howardang said:

 As far as ships moving on the Trent is concerned,  there are not as many as there used to be but occasional  movements can still catch you out, especially between Keadby and Trent Falls,

 

Yes there are ships moving below Keadby.

I don't think I would fancy going there in a narrowboat although some narrowboats  have been as far as Hull and survived.

 

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54 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Yes there are ships moving below Keadby.

I don't think I would fancy going there in a narrowboat although some narrowboats  have been as far as Hull and survived.

 

It is perfectly possibles to get to Hull and indeed there some narrow boats based at Hull Marina, and other similar craft at Beverley and further up the River Hull towards Driffield, although the final stretch into Driffield is  blocked for boat passage by a road bridge. It does require some care to chose when to navigate the Humber and to be aware of tides. Up to date charts are essential because some channels change regularly; charts can be purchased from ABP in Hull, among other places. 

 

Howard

Edited by howardang
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8 minutes ago, howardang said:

Up to date charts are essential because some channels change regularly; charts can be purchased from ABP in Hull, among other places. 

 

You can actually download them (FoC) from their website.

 

They seem to be up dated almost monthly (or even more frequently after bad weather) - when we were moored in Hull Marina, everytime we went out the Survey boat was doing some part of the river for the 'next weeks' publication.

 

They will call you on the VHF requesting that you keep clear of them, so another reason to have the VHF switched on.

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A fresh chart for the upper Humber is published every two months and usually the coordinates of the floats can be obtained although I have noticed this data has not been kept as up to date as it used to be. I only travel in daylight so not really an issue as the marks and floats are easily visible.

buoyage.xls (live.com)

 

East of the Humber bridge things don’t change much.

Edited by MartynG
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