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Thanks Alex and Tony,

 

I intend to stay mainly costal cruising but will run up the rivers from time to time, there are some really beautiful spots to be reached upstream and the Skipper may say she has had enough of waves for a while and wants the water to stop moving so much. I understand the studs now, I need to replace a nut and washer for the one I sacrificed to the Great Bilge Gods before I try turning the engine over tomorrow, I think its a 3/8th isn't it

Edited by Mike on Sea Hustler
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Nuts are 5/16" UNF  studs are UNC into the block.

 

Have you established that this pump is definitely faulty? Fitting a new one if it is not faulty is a lot of work for nothing.

If you are able to bleed the fuel system with the existing pump it is not faulty.

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Thanks Tracy,

 

In truth, Im not sure about the pump, when I operate the pump by hand, there appears to be little resistance, I did get a gurgling sound when moving the pump body around while it was unbolted from the block suggesting something was going on in the 'pumping world'. I managed to get some bubbles at the filter outlet followed by what I took to be steady fuel flow. The same at the bleed screw on top of the injector pump but zero at the screw on the side and nothing at the injectors, honestly, Im not sure if the pump is working properly or not. Tomorrow I attack the job again with a new starter battery, improved knowledge and a special incantation woven for me by the Fuel Angel of the Deep, she assures me that her magic is more powerful than any technical issues so I have complete confidence that the engine will fire by me just looking at it with a meaningful stare but we shall see.

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So................

Arrived at the boat yesterday lunchtime and set about the first job ordered by the skipper, "get the coal burning stove working please", spent all afternoon on that job only to be met with problems meaning it was not safe to light last night, (yes she loves the smell of burning houses, even in June) 

 

Then this morning set about the engine. 

 

As directed, lifted the cockpit sole and gave the beast a very steely stare, muttered incantation as instructed by Fuel Angel of the Deep and informed said assortment  of nuts, bolts pistons, chains pumps and injectors that I came armed with knowledge and copious quantities of electrickery with which to claim it's soul. Fitted new batteries, and set about bleeding the fuel system. In the hope that I had managed to bleed it as least as far as the pump in my previous efforts, I cracked open two injectors and turned it over on the key, as hoped, fuel spurted from the two injectors I had loosened confirming that the many hours labour and ripped knuckles I had endure trying to change the lift pump had all been unnecessary because it was working fine. But more to my amazement, after about 10 seconds or so, it tried to fire up. I rushed off to get as much water as I could carry (30 litres) and sorted the sea strainer. Cranked it over on full throttle and bingo, it fired, however, it only ran for about  5 seconds or so before stopping again. It continued to do this for about 4/5 tries before I sat back and scratched my head. Thinking that if it was so ready to start after 5 years lying dormant, it would seem everything was ready to go EXCEPT I had fiddled with the throttle body adjustment which as you know I had mistaken for the bleed valve. So I loosened the lock nut and backed it off a turn and BINGO it started first time. Unfortunately, the Rev Counter does not work so I have no idea what revs its doing on tick over so that is something I need to sort. After making suitable offerings to the deity and mentally thanking you all for your assistance,  I let it sit for a while and gave it another go, it starts on the first throw of the starter and settles down with no hunting or lumpy running at all.                                   

 

I would have  assumed on an engine of this era, the rev counter would be a direct drive from somewhere (not a new fangled electricaltronical one) but my memory seems to tell me that when I checked out the back of the gauge, there was no old fashioned cable type arrangement so Im guessing it is powered by electicwizardry after all. That being the case, I will need to delve into why its not working with a multi meter I guess. 

 

Anyway, again, thank you to all of you for your help especially Tony and no doubt you will all hear a plaintive cry "heeeeelp" carried on the breeze sometime soon, it will be me in difficulty again. 

 

Thanks Mike

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Glad to hear it's all working properly.

 

Your incantation didn't send the fuel demons in my direction did it? I have just spent an hour playing with the lift pump on the Midget and am about to head out there again. Runs fine on fuel poured into the carb float bowls but not pulling anything through from the tank.


Alec

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Possibly the problem was a battery with not enough guts in the first place.

 

Congrats on getting it going.

 

Tacho  will most likely be a wire from the "W" terminal on the alternator which is one AC phase of the 3 phase alternator stator to the back of the tacho and positive  and negative supply, simple.

 

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I bet the alternator is an AC or ACR without a W terminal, but as Tracy says one can be soldered in as a fly lead, a photo if the back will help identify it

 

Edited to add, occasionally you find a rev counter driven by an inductor sensing from either the flywheel teeth or a steel figure fitting behind the crankshaft pulley. The Broads yards did a lot of this.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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Off to the boat again tomorrow, as you can imagine, my mind is forever in the bilges thinking of what task I need to tackle next. Before I move away from the engine, there is something I think I should address. When working on it a while ago, I was removing the old fuel filter when the plastic return hose connecting the filter and the first injector just crumbled in my hand. On inspection all four of them were in similar condition so I replaced all four. I noted that the hose from the filter to the injector pump appeared to be of a similar material (cant really tell as its been painted over) and logic tells me if the four injector return lines were knackered, it stands to reason that this line is also, in the same state it should also be replaced. do you know what diameter this line is so that I can order new replacement lines. I think there may be a second line as well. another quick question, I won't be putting the thing in gear as she is still high and dry but I have been told the Borg Warner Velvet drive uses the same 30 grade oil as the engine, is that correct? 

 

Will also pull the cover from the back of the alternator and take a pic

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7 minutes ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

Off to the boat again tomorrow, as you can imagine, my mind is forever in the bilges thinking of what task I need to tackle next. Before I move away from the engine, there is something I think I should address. When working on it a while ago, I was removing the old fuel filter when the plastic return hose connecting the filter and the first injector just crumbled in my hand. On inspection all four of them were in similar condition so I replaced all four. I noted that the hose from the filter to the injector pump appeared to be of a similar material (cant really tell as its been painted over) and logic tells me if the four injector return lines were knackered, it stands to reason that this line is also, in the same state it should also be replaced. do you know what diameter this line is so that I can order new replacement lines. I think there may be a second line as well. another quick question, I won't be putting the thing in gear as she is still high and dry but I have been told the Borg Warner Velvet drive uses the same 30 grade oil as the engine, is that correct? 

 

Will also pull the cover from the back of the alternator and take a pic

 

I am all but sure that we used ATF (Dexron) on them in the hire fleet.  We had to change the nylon pipe to copper because of the then BSS like Thames regulations.

 

The nylon is pushed over steel pipe at each end (from memory) so just measure the OD of the steel pipe. I think it may be 1/4" but I can't rule out 5/16", so today probably 6 or 8mm.

 

If you can get access to it, it will be a very good idea to remove and clean the injector pup drive oil jet and strainer. If the strainer blocks, the camshaft skew gear wears away.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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So back from the boat..

 

Successfully tackled a number of jobs, all of which bar a couple bring me to about time to start painting.

 

Still need to finish two small jobs on the engine and we are ready to go - I think- the banjo bolt on top of the fuel filter has a slight leak so need to tackle that which I'm hoping is just a case of replacing the copper washer. I have taken the measurement of the two lines to and from the filter to the injection pump and they look like 6mm. Checked the gearbox oil and it was full and nice and clean - it has etched on the dip stick "use type A fluid"  whatever that is. I tried to get the cover off the back of the alternator but it wouldn't budge, however, I found a wire with a faint label wrapped round it which said 'Rev counter repair' and its clear it has been wired in at some later stage,  tracing it to the back of the control panel, its the same wire (well same colour anyway) I cant find a fuse anywhere and I don't have a multimeter so I'm guessing I need to get someone in to look at that. I do have a DC tester which I can use to see if there is any current getting to it, otherwise, I will just have to be kind to the engine and keep the revs in a happy place.

 

 

 

On 07/06/2023 at 12:46, Tony Brooks said:

 

If you can get access to it, it will be a very good idea to remove and clean the injector pup drive oil jet and strainer. If the strainer blocks, the camshaft skew gear wears away.

 

Could you elaborate

 

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28 minutes ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

If you can get access to it, it will be a very good idea to remove and clean the injector pup drive oil jet and strainer. If the strainer blocks, the camshaft skew gear wears away.

 

Could you elaborate

 

The drive gears for the injector pump is the same as for the B series petrol engine distributor but the injector pump requires a lot more power to be transmitted. This means the splash lubrication that is used on the petrol engines is not sufficient, so the skew gears are force lubricated via a jet and the jet has an associated strainer. I have had neglected engines where the strainer had collapsed or blocked and the camshaft gear was badly worn. In fact, so worn, the pump timing was jumping all over the place.

 

If you have access problems for the lift pump then the same is likely to apply to the oil jet and strainer. They are below the exhaust manifold close to the back of the engine where a vertical bulge in the block casting is located. The strainer screws into the top of the bulge and the jet into the side. I think the strainer is 9/16" or 5/8" AF and the jet one side down.

 

image.png.b2ec217275f4a3493acd9e528a255ac7.png

NOTE: that is an automotive exhaust manifold, yours will be very different.

 

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

So back from the boat..

 

Successfully tackled a number of jobs, all of which bar a couple bring me to about time to start painting.

 

Still need to finish two small jobs on the engine and we are ready to go - I think- the banjo bolt on top of the fuel filter has a slight leak so need to tackle that which I'm hoping is just a case of replacing the copper washer. I have taken the measurement of the two lines to and from the filter to the injection pump and they look like 6mm. Checked the gearbox oil and it was full and nice and clean - it has etched on the dip stick "use type A fluid"  whatever that is. I tried to get the cover off the back of the alternator but it wouldn't budge, however, I found a wire with a faint label wrapped round it which said 'Rev counter repair' and its clear it has been wired in at some later stage,  tracing it to the back of the control panel, its the same wire (well same colour anyway) I cant find a fuse anywhere and I don't have a multimeter so I'm guessing I need to get someone in to look at that. I do have a DC tester which I can use to see if there is any current getting to it, otherwise, I will just have to be kind to the engine and keep the revs in a happy place.

 

Not wishing to be a complicate things but, few automotive alternators from years ago had a terminal to drive the rev counter so what is known as a phase tap had to be fitted. This was just a wire sticking out of the back of the alternator. It works on one of the three generating coils of phases that are inside the alternator and use one of a pair of diodes to half-wave rectify it, so it produces a series of pulses that are proportional to engine speed. You really need a meter that will measure frequency to check it (Hz) but you can get some idea by using an AC voltmeter set to about 20V and revving the engine, the reading should go up and down in time with engine speed. NOW - if the relevant diode has blown, the alternator will still appear to charge but the rev counter won't work. The alternator in that case will not be charging properly. Please post a photo of the alternator, especially the back so we can identify it. If it is what I think it is, then another straight fit alternator will add at least another 20 amps to the charge and will have a W (rev counter)terminal.

 

Off to find an image of the strainer and jet now.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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Thanks, that is an ACR, I can't tell you the output, but probably between about 35 and 40 amps. An A127 is a straight fit, and although I thought 70 amps was the highest output available we got a photo a day or two ago that suggest 90 amp versions are now available, but that is about as large as you can go on a single V belt, and you need good quality notched belts.

 

From memory, the hexagon screws that hold the plastic cover on are a funny size that many 1/4 sq drive socket sets do not have. Possibly something like 5/64", but don't take that as gospel.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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1 minute ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

That light blue wire with the white plastic connecter is the one with the label on which says Rev counter repair, if you look closely you can see it is fed into the back of the alternator through one of the slots in the black cover separate from the rest of the loom. 

 

That is absolutely normal on those alternators if you want to drive a rev counter. The term repair probably refers to the fitting of that wire.

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I fear that because she was sitting for such a long time, the pulleys are not in that good condition, quite rusted up apart from the water pump which of course is aluminium. I have fitted new belts and Im keeping a close eye on them every time I run the engine to see how badly they are wearing. 

I can hit things with hammers, twist things with spanners even loosen things with heat and WD40 but when it comes to something I cannot see like electrictrickery, Im stumped. should that blue wire have power to it if so I can stick a dc tester on it if not its throw hands up in the air time and add it to the list of 'when I can afford it' jobs

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5 minutes ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

I fear that because she was sitting for such a long time, the pulleys are not in that good condition, quite rusted up apart from the water pump which of course is aluminium. I have fitted new belts and Im keeping a close eye on them every time I run the engine to see how badly they are wearing. 

You may well be lucky on that one. If the pulleys have only got surface rust from slightly salt laden condensation then although it won't look pretty it should be fairly even. That means so long as there hasn't been too much loss of section, you will probably end up with the rust gradually cleaning off the running surfaces by itself. The other surfaces would of course need manual intervention to clean them - however tempting it may be, don't wrap sandpaper round them whilst running to clean them as it can grab and damage your extremities, although pushing a piece of paper against it from one side is perfectly normal practice, so long as there is nothing to catch yourself on whilst doing so. If it doubt, double-sided taping a piece of paper to the end of a batten is pretty effective.

 

Alec

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12 minutes ago, Mike on Sea Hustler said:

Im stumped. should that blue wire have power to it if so I can stick a dc tester on it if not its throw hands up in the air time and add it to the list of 'when I can afford it' jobs

 

No, I keep telling you that it is a phase tap that provides a half-wave rectified "signal" to the rev counter. You can not make any leaning full measurement of voltage on that cable. The rev counter should have a negative, a positive feed when the ignition s turned on and that blue phase tap cable. This ignores the possibility of the instrument being illuminated by one or two more wires.

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Not sure I fancy putting any part of my anatomy near those spinning pulleys, my friend who owns a boat yard and has been around these engines for years (can never answer those difficult questions though) has lost both his thumbs from doing something like that and I quite like my thumbs where they are methinks.

 

I think I will check the connections on this blue wire to see if there may be an issue there otherwise, I will leave it for now as there are many other jobs associated with making way that need my attention and although not quite the same, I have been around automotical travelating devices most of my life and know  when an engine is stressed so will just keep the revs within 'nice'  and not worry too much about numbers. 

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